PDA

View Full Version : Gardner Douglas Press Release



robert
06-01-05, 09:07 AM
Pictures to follow.

Press Release



December 2004



Starts…



Gardner Douglas announces the introduction of a new alternative 427 body shape.



Orders for the company’s GD427 are at an all time high resulting in a current 9 month lead time for their superb semi-monocoque body. To ease the demand on production, GD are working to produce a second set of moulds, but rather than duplicate their existing body, they will be introducing a complimentary shape to their range which will fit either the GDEURO or GDJAG backbone space-frame chassis.



The actual shape is genuine AC coming from MK4 Light Weight, from which tooling was made to provide carbon fibre body shells.



The photographs show the first body shell produced from the carbon moulds, sat in position on a GD chassis, this body has been adapted to the GD inner tub and is now undergoing surface finishing and final preparation before making new GD production moulds.



Even before the moulds are started, GD have secured nine confirmed orders for the new body, which indicates this addition becoming a roaring success for GD and ultimately sharing production with the current sleeker MK3 inspired GD427.



This move will mean Gardner Douglas now offer the complete “one stop shop” offering unrivalled customer choice in selecting their dream car backed up by parts, servicing and after sales that is second to none.



With long lead times GD currently accepts a nominal £200 deposit for anyone wishing to add his or her name to the production list for either the GD427 or GDT70.



An interesting fact file;

The AC Light Weight weighs in at around 1025kg and has a Ford 5.0Ltr Motor Sport engine producing 350 bhp giving a power to weight ratio of 341bhp/tonne. The GD (EURO version) with a standard normally aspirated production GM LS6 (sample only, any SB will fit) weighing 960kg returns a power to weight ratio of 442bhp/tonne running on GD’s standard exhaust system, figures confirmed after recent rolling road testing. Better still, with GD’s proven space frame chassis and modern double wishbone suspension the GD427 rides and handles like no other, bringing the legend in to the 21st century.





…ends

Miket
06-01-05, 09:37 AM
That should be a good seller (depending on cost ), the original shape was the only downfall on a GD, can't wait to see the pictures :thumb: :thumb:

ldtopham
06-01-05, 10:02 AM
What about the new body with side pipes???? Now that would look smart!

russell_ram
06-01-05, 10:39 AM
Great news - makes the kit choice a no brainer IMHO.

Now, I don't want to be picky, but since when has the GD had a spaceframe chassis? It has a tubular backbone chassis.

And, since when has it had a 'semi-monocoque' body - it surely has a non-monocoque body rubber mounted (so there is no-way it is remotely monocoque) to it's backbone chassis.

As I say, I'm not having a go, but this is terminology misuse.

Russ

robert
06-01-05, 11:06 AM
Semi-monocoque literally means half a single shell. Internal braces as well as the skin itself carry the stress. The internal braces include longitudinal (lengthwise) members called stringers and vertical bulkhead.

A monocoque is a whole shell, in this case it would include the roof to form a single monocoque, however because a GD doesn't have a roof, it is a semi-monocoque.

robert
06-01-05, 11:11 AM
Great news - makes the kit choice a no brainer IMHO.

Now, I don't want to be picky, but since when has the GD had a spaceframe chassis? It has a tubular backbone chassis.


Backbone space frame is the correct terminology, first introduced by Colin Chapman and the D Type Jag used a backbone spaceframe.

robert
06-01-05, 11:35 AM
What about the new body with side pipes???? Now that would look smart!
Pictures coming shortly.

Miket
06-01-05, 11:39 AM
Hurry up with the pics, you got my taste buds going.

NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

robert
06-01-05, 12:23 PM
Images attached, the photographs show the first body shell produced from the carbon moulds, sat in position on a GD chassis, this body has been adapted to the GD inner tub and is now undergoing surface finishing and final preparation before making new GD production moulds.

Miket
06-01-05, 12:30 PM
Has it got the rounded rear or have they squared it like the Crendon and the original :confused: :confused:

robert
06-01-05, 12:37 PM
Has it got the rounded rear or have they squared it like the Crendon and the original :confused: :confused:
No idea chap, I haven't seen it properly, however the actual shape is genuine AC coming from MK4 Light Weight.

russell_ram
06-01-05, 12:56 PM
OK, so now I am going to be picky (but only because Robert has been).

Monocoque - single shell, yes. In normal automotive usage monocoque would indicate NO chassis. ie single structure carrying all loads from road, drive train and payload (with subframes maybe). Roof vs no roof is irrelevent - an MX5 or MGF are monocoque roofless vehicles. Semi-monocoque is almost a meanless description, unless it means that either the monocoque or the chassis are not up to the job of carrying the required loads on their own (clearly the GD chassis is extremely capable). The GD body is only required to carry payload forces (the passengers).

Backbone spaceframe is probably an oxy-moron. Backbone implies exactly what the words say. As does spaceframe - a frame enclosing a space. The GD chassis is at best a space frame for the engine and prop shaft. It is nowhere near a spaceframe chassis in the true automotive sense of the terminology.

Russ

robert
06-01-05, 01:12 PM
OK, so now I am going to be picky (but only because Robert has been).
OK, haven't had a good conversation for a while.


Monocoque - single shell, yes. In normal automotive usage monocoque would indicate NO chassis. ie single structure carrying all loads from road, drive train and payload (with subframes maybe). Roof vs no roof is irrelevent - an MX5 or MGF are monocoque roofless vehicles. Semi-monocoque is almost a meanless description, unless it means that either the monocoque or the chassis are not up to the job of carrying the required loads on their own (clearly the GD chassis is extremely capable). The GD body is only required to carry payload forces (the passengers).
No, the GD body carries a load also. The chassis on its own has approximately 2500lb/ft per degree of movement, bolt the chassis onto it and that figure increases to approximately 4000 lb/ft per degree. This was tested on the original road demonstrator in 1994. And I will repeat my original reply. Semi-monocoque literally means half a single shell. Internal braces as well as the skin itself carry the stress. The internal braces include longitudinal (lengthwise) members called stringers and vertical bulkhead. :D


Backbone spaceframe is probably an oxy-moron. Backbone implies exactly what the words say. As does spaceframe - a frame enclosing a space. The GD chassis is at best a space frame for the engine and prop shaft. It is nowhere near a spaceframe chassis in the true automotive sense of the terminology.

Russ
So, in that case, is Adrian Reynard also an oxymoron, as he designed a Backbone Spaceframe?? :D :D :finger:

Backbone Spaceframes are used in the D Type, Ronart, to name but a few. :thumb:

robert
06-01-05, 01:48 PM
OK, so now I am going to be picky (but only because Robert has been).

Monocoque - single shell, yes. In normal automotive usage monocoque would indicate NO chassis. ie single structure carrying all loads from road, drive train and payload (with subframes maybe). Roof vs no roof is irrelevent - an MX5 or MGF are monocoque roofless vehicles. Semi-monocoque is almost a meanless description, unless it means that either the monocoque or the chassis are not up to the job of carrying the required loads on their own (clearly the GD chassis is extremely capable). The GD body is only required to carry payload forces (the passengers).

Russ
Russ

Just done some thinking and a bit of googling, and the following manufacturers use a Semi-Monocoque.

Koenigsegg (http://www.koenigsegg.com/)
Marcos (http://www.marcos-eng.com/html/ts500.html) - GRP composite semi-monocoque body that yields an extremely light vehicle with excellent torsional rigidity
Aston Martin (http://www.astonmartins.com/db7/db7_v12_vantage.htm)- the DB7 has a steel semi-monocoque body
Ferrari 312 PB (http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.php?file=car.php&carnum=154)- Body - aluminum semi-monocoque

shadow
06-01-05, 03:25 PM
Please excuse my ignorance here :o. But what are the differences between the 2 body shapes? And how is it different to Dax or Pilgrim?

I have noticed that there are slight differences in replica shapes but cant realy spot them in the GD :confused:

robert
06-01-05, 03:32 PM
The current GD body shape is taken from a 289 Mk3 Coilover, which was a sleeker shape then the standard 427 shape.

The majority of replicas bodies are either copies of copies, or copies of crash damaged cars etc, with the exception of a few.

shadow
06-01-05, 03:36 PM
I see, so the Mk4 is the preffered more shapely body? :thumb:

Andy302
06-01-05, 04:31 PM
Cant wait to see a finished shell in paint and trim. That was the only thing my wife wasnt too keen on with the GD, the "thinner" body. She always wanted it to look more "beefey!"
I pressume side pipes will still be an option, underslungs are still my preffered choice!

Still a long way off ordering the cahssis/body yet. £1K worth of running gera bits to sort yet!!:thumb:

Cheers

ldtopham
06-01-05, 05:31 PM
Rob,
Any more pics from more angles, especially the rear? Looks like a deeper front wheel may also be fitted?

robert
06-01-05, 07:00 PM
Rob,
Any more pics from more angles, especially the rear? Looks like a deeper front wheel may also be fitted?
Sorry chap, these are the only ones that Andy has sent, but the body is up at GD, currently on my chassis :angry: .

You might need to be quick though, as they are making the proper moulds from that body.

gd02 cob
06-01-05, 07:33 PM
I'm afraid I have the same view as Shadow and I think I would fail "a spot the difference"competition, especially when seated in the drivers seat.

Well at least beauty is only skin deep and what really matters is whats underneath !!!

So power to Andy's elbow if he can attract more customers by offering a "slightly" different body shape to lure those how have not considered a GD for its outstanding ability and build quality in the past.

And if it can have sidepipes then the world's his oyster..........

Nick

Old shape GD, no classic shape.

robert
06-01-05, 07:43 PM
And if it can have sidepipes then the world's his oyster..........

Nick

Old shape GD, no classic shape.
Yep, side pipes are an option.

Personally, I will be sticking with the current shape. :thumb:

ldtopham
06-01-05, 08:41 PM
Side pipes are a definite go, Just working out how to mount the side pipes but it isn't going to be too difficult. The hard bit is done and that was the manifolds, two weeks of cutting shaping and welding the bleeders! I think they will make a big difference to the look of either body shell that GD do. Now which body do I go for?????

shadow
06-01-05, 08:46 PM
Have you choped up the body? Tha is a GD but there's only 2/3 of the body. How can you put those bits back?:confused:

Purple AK
06-01-05, 08:56 PM
It's a GD Hot Rod. Can't you tell buy the steering wheel position? Looking GOOD :thumb:

Miket
06-01-05, 09:01 PM
Side pipes are a definite go, Just working out how to mount the side pipes but it isn't going to be too difficult. The hard bit is done and that was the manifolds, two weeks of cutting shaping and welding the bleeders! I think they will make a big difference to the look of either body shell that GD do. Now which body do I go for????? Pipes are looking excellent, Regarding the body, I should wait and see the finished item, as the front arches look a bit Viper'ish at the moment. :( :(

ldtopham
06-01-05, 09:06 PM
I'm a dab hand with resin and fibreglass, nowt but a 2 minute job to stick the front and rear end back on!

Rob, I'll have to wait a while longer to see the new shell at the factory as I can't get there just yet. I think it will look cool with the side pipes though.

I have fabricated around the current shell that GD offer so side pipes will fit either with a little work. Because the inner tub (darn't call it monocock or what ever it is just incase I end up in a dispute lol) remains the same on them both I can use the sid epipes on which ever shell I decide to have.

I guess you could fabricate side pipes using a complete shell but the way I wanted mine meant hackin n bashin a little. Better to damage an all ready damaged shell than your own.

robert
06-01-05, 09:27 PM
Pipes are looking excellent, Regarding the body, I should wait and see the finished item, as the front arches look a bit Viper'ish at the moment. :( :(
The whole body is as correct as it can be.

The actual shape is genuine AC coming from MK4 Light Weight, from which tooling was made to provide carbon fibre body shells

Miket
06-01-05, 09:41 PM
The whole body is as correct as it can be.

The actual shape is genuine AC coming from MK4 Light Weight, from which tooling was made to provide carbon fibre body shells No need to shout, I might be old, but I'm not deaf. ;) ;)

robert
06-01-05, 09:57 PM
No need to shout, I might be old, but I'm not deaf. ;) ;)
IF I WAS SHOUTING, IT WOULD ALL BE LIKE THIS.

:D :D :thumb: :) :rolleyes: :finger:

Purple AK
06-01-05, 10:02 PM
I Thought The Mk4 Was Autocraft?? Not Ac

snake_bitten
07-01-05, 06:53 AM
'I Thought The Mk4 Was Autocraft?? Not Ac'
__________________

OH NO!!!!...............now you've gone and dunnit!!..........you'll set them off again???

robert
07-01-05, 07:44 AM
I Thought The Mk4 Was Autocraft?? Not Ac
The Mk4 was AC, not autokraft, and was used by AC to tool up for the CRS.

robert
07-01-05, 08:02 AM
Pipes are looking excellent, Regarding the body, I should wait and see the finished item, as the front arches look a bit Viper'ish at the moment. :( :(Mike

Couple of piccies for you, one of a painted Mk4, and one of the grey GD body, if the front arches look viperish, then thats because its the right shape. :p

williamsdad
07-01-05, 08:51 AM
I have placed a order for one of these new bodys on a gd euro chasis, wont get it untill september this year. I have ordered it with Gms LS6 engine tuned to stage 1. produces 477hp @6000rpm 461lb torque and 330lb of torque at 1500rpm, so should be a real stormer.

shadow
07-01-05, 12:33 PM
What's the body price diff if you dont mind me asking?

robert
07-01-05, 01:04 PM
What's the body price diff if you dont mind me asking?
None, they are just options as far as I am aware.

williamsdad
07-01-05, 01:55 PM
Shadow, the cost off the new body is £500.00 extra to the old style body, costs are to cover mold manufacture & additional materials used in the new style. or you can co down the carbon fibre way at a additional £2,000 and saving about 50lb in weight.
hope this helps.

shadow
07-01-05, 02:58 PM
Thats a fair price for what your getting I suppose. Cheers

MacGD016
07-01-05, 03:00 PM
Mike

Couple of piccies for you, one of a painted Mk4, and one of the grey GD body, if the front arches look viperish, then thats because its the right shape. :p
Rob, Do you know whether they will be putting a scoop on the bonnet?

Mac

Adrian472
07-01-05, 03:03 PM
A rivited scoop would be nice. I think they will do well with this new body shape!

Adrian

Andy302
07-01-05, 03:10 PM
Could you not "mockup" a riveted scoop? I know what you mean, the more "muscle" appearance bits you add the more I like it, though if you go that far did you really ought to have the side pipes? Thats something Im still keen to avoid.


You see just when I thought Id sorted out all my decisions, someone goes and brings out something new......:thumb:

robert
07-01-05, 03:38 PM
A rivited scoop would be nice. I think they will do well with this new body shape!

Adrian
BAM already has a riveted scoop, as does the old GD carbon Fibre racer, so I shouldn't think it would be a problem.

Any further questions, please contact GD, or wait for the Open Day to have a look. :thumb: :thumb:

Purple AK
07-01-05, 04:34 PM
The Mk4 was AC, not autokraft, and was used by AC to tool up for the CRS.OK. AC Autokraft... then AC Cars Ltd... then.......... ;)

DiggleBBC
07-01-05, 04:58 PM
I do like the new GD shape, the thing that put me off an AK was the intrusion of part of the chassis into the footwell, the thing that put me off the GD was the slimmer body shape, so I bought a Dax. ( I won't tell you about the other contender, since now it has been resurrected, the new owners have been a bit sensitive with me in the past :-( , but when I was making the decision, it was correct to exclude some replicas. )
So, Dave, are you going to have to start building GD 427s as well as the T70 ?

Interesting question though, will the GD of either shape only accept small blocks?
I think that might be the case having read http://www.gdcars.com/gd427/gd427.htm
It would be nice if they could hold a big one! :D

robert
07-01-05, 06:36 PM
Diggle

With a small block, you get near perfect 50/50 weight distribution, and a small block can give in excess of 500hp, why would you need a big block??

Or you could use my engine that does about 680hp. :thumb: :thumb:

You can get a big block in there, but personally, I don't see the point as the weight has an impact on performance.

dave
07-01-05, 07:37 PM
I do like the new GD shape, the thing that put me off an AK was the intrusion of part of the chassis into the footwell, the thing that put me off the GD was the slimmer body shape, so I bought a Dax. ( I won't tell you about the other contender, since now it has been resurrected, the new owners have been a bit sensitive with me in the past :-( , but when I was making the decision, it was correct to exclude some replicas. )
So, Dave, are you going to have to start building GD 427s as well as the T70 ?

Interesting question though, will the GD of either shape only accept small blocks?
I think that might be the case having read http://www.gdcars.com/gd427/gd427.htm
It would be nice if they could hold a big one! :D


Hi Pete.
I'll build anything M8, It's just that I am able to offer the best value for money (It would seem) with the Dax builds.

All.
Or should I get my calculator out and put some numbers together for:-
GD
AK
Crendon
Kirkham.

I'd like to stick with the higher end stuff as the Sierra based cars are just as hard to build but people expect the labour charges to be less. A bit like expecting a pair of Jeans from ASDA to be easier to put on that a pair from Armani. :thumb:

gd02 cob
08-01-05, 07:20 AM
I'm confused, where exactly does the "MK4" fit into the Cobra family tree?
Nick

MacGD016
08-01-05, 08:37 AM
I'm confused, where exactly does the "MK4" fit into the Cobra family tree?
NickAfter the Mk3............sorry Nick couldnt resist t!!!:D

But to answer your question, the Mk3 is the 289 and the Mk4 is the 427...........I think!:)

Mac

robert
08-01-05, 08:44 AM
I'm confused, where exactly does the "MK4" fit into the Cobra family tree?
Nick
As far as I can remember, the Mk4 was introduced in the late 70s by AC and was based on earlier Cobra chassis and body tooling, soon after Brian Angliss bought controlling interest in AC Cars Ltd. October 1987 Ford buy controlling interest in AC from Angliss. Mid 1990 Ford announce intentions to close AC Cars Ltd, but Angliss fights decision and continues building AC Mk4 Cobra.

gd02 cob
08-01-05, 09:56 AM
I think this link gives a very comprehensive history of the Cobra, worth reading.
http://www.cobratrader.com/cobrahistory.html

From what I can see the GD is based an "AC" designed body which was basically in production in the last year 1969. This was based on the 427 body, but was fitted with 289 engines and were of the slightly narrower rear wing variety. These last cars from AC carried the "AC" badge, unlike the majority of Cobras produced.

The so called MK4 was not announced until probably 1990 by AutoKraft

AutoKraft did not acquire the MK3 jigs until 1980.

Brian Angliss commenced restoring Cobras around 1972.

I visited Brian on numerous occassions during 1981-82 at West Byfleet, during which time he was producing Cobras minus engines and gearboxs for shipping to the US.

So from what I have seen the so called MK4 is not a car that was produced or designed by AC Cars at Thames Ditton but has appeared at sometime after.
Not really original at all then really.

I'm sure there will be differing views.

Nick

williamsdad
08-01-05, 10:06 AM
Okay guys I hope this will help, the Mk1V That GD is bringing out is the very last & rarest of cobras which is the lieghtweight limited edition MK1V produced around 1989 to 1990 before liquidation Angliss who ran Autocraft called this version the 8/C a more powefull version echoing an old shelby 427 theme.

Having one of these on order I have resesarched the history, & lookforward to driving it when it finally arives in September.

MacGD016
08-01-05, 10:20 AM
After the Mk3............sorry Nick couldnt resist t!!!:D

But to answer your question, the Mk3 is the 289 and the Mk4 is the 427...........I think!:)

Mac
Having got this completely wrong I had another look at at Trevor Legate's book and as Nick says the transission from Mk3 to MkIV is a little cloudy but as williamsdad says the new GD body is based on the MkIV Lightweight which is different again, isnt it? :D :D :D

It looks great anyhow............whatever it is:)

Miket
08-01-05, 10:40 AM
Rob, Do you know whether they will be putting a scoop on the bonnet?

Mac
Hi Mac

If you want it to look original, they didn't have scoops on the bonnet. :thumb:

MacGD016
08-01-05, 10:43 AM
Hi Mac

If you want it to look original, they didn't have scoops on the bonnet. :thumb:
Ah, but original to what, thats the question:D

Miket
08-01-05, 10:45 AM
Ah, but original to what, thats the question:D
To the original :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :D :D

williamsdad
08-01-05, 11:05 AM
Just to inform you the MK1V has a very nice airscoop on the bonnet. which makes it look good. the 8/c verion has a air scoop too. hope this helps.

gd02 cob
08-01-05, 12:06 PM
So in a nutshell, the original GD shape is a replica of an original "AC" produced car, and the MK4 based on adaptation of a shape inspired by Brian Angliss. In other words the "new" shape GD is a copy of a copy!

Have I got it right now ??

Nick

MacGD016
08-01-05, 12:09 PM
To the original :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :D :D
But which one:-( :-( :-( :D ;)

MacGD016
08-01-05, 12:18 PM
So in a nutshell, the original GD shape is a replica of an original "AC" produced car, and the MK4 based on adaptation of a shape inspired by Brian Angliss. In other words the "new" shape GD is a copy of a copy!

Have I got it right now ??

NickThat must be right...............but............as the Brian Angliss Mk4 was built using the original body froms from AC, perhaps not:-( :-(

Mac

williamsdad
08-01-05, 01:03 PM
As I understand it from Andrew Burrows at GD they have bought the orrigional carbon fibre molds from autocraft, which is based on the lightweight version of the MK1V or known as AC superblower model. The info I have got & found out is not much. but there is some info about this model in the book ac cobra the complete story by brian laban. with some pictures of a mk1V 1990 model which is identical to a orrigional ac superblower that went through the auction house at Buxton 8th Dec sold for £41k
I hope this is of any help.

gd02 cob
08-01-05, 01:54 PM
Yes it will be the same shape as the example they have displayed at the British Motor Museum at Beaulieu.
Nick

williamsdad
08-01-05, 03:20 PM
I will have a look and see if it looks the same.
Steve.

williamsdad
08-01-05, 03:35 PM
Had a look, its a 1965 model 427 shelby race model. and looks just the same as the MK1V.
the lightweight was bulit more in line with the origional cobra ethic.and only a very limited amount was built aroung 1990. about 9 I belive.
Steve.

Miket
08-01-05, 03:41 PM
But which one:-( :-( :-( :D ;) The original AC Cobra 427 (1965-68) shown in the picture, which had hand rolled aluminium bodies, only 316 of these where made.

osgood
08-01-05, 04:06 PM
Pipes are looking excellent, Regarding the body, I should wait and see the finished item, as the front arches look a bit Viper'ish at the moment. :( :(
My My Mike what big arches shes got great ehh :D ;) Eric :rolleyes:

DiggleBBC
08-01-05, 07:28 PM
Diggle

With a small block, you get near perfect 50/50 weight distribution, and a small block can give in excess of 500hp, why would you need a big block??

Or you could use my engine that does about 680hp. :thumb: :thumb:

You can get a big block in there, but personally, I don't see the point as the weight has an impact on performance.
Don't get to use the top-end BHP very often, but do tend to get to use the torque quite often, and there's more of that available (505lb/ft) from big blocks without turning them into highly-strung, highly tuned tempramental types.
Also, as far as the 50/50 goes, with the Dax, according to the build manual at least, the big block actually gives you closer to 50/50 than the small block. Nyaah. :p
My dream would be to put in a ZL-1 anyway, which would lessen the weight penalty. I'll gladly put up with the iron one for the time being though, at least while I get used to it! ;)
Oh, and the big block sounds gorgeous.

robert
08-01-05, 07:48 PM
Don't get to use the top-end BHP very often, but do tend to get to use the torque quite often, and there's more of that available (505lb/ft) from big blocks without turning them into highly-strung, highly tuned tempramental types.
Also, as far as the 50/50 goes, with the Dax, according to the build manual at least, the big block actually gives you closer to 50/50 than the small block. Nyaah. :p
My dream would be to put in a ZL-1 anyway, which would lessen the weight penalty. I'll gladly put up with the iron one for the time being though, at least while I get used to it! ;)
Oh, and the big block sounds gorgeous.Interesting, so a dax with a big block has 50/50 weight, and a GD with a small block has 50/50 weight.

However, what is the kerb weight of the Dax, as max power is irrelevant, power to weight is the key to the equation here. :D :D

If I can remember, someone posted up that a Dax with a big block weighs about 1300kgs, let me know if I am wrong.

A dax with a small block would weigh about 1100kgs 383 unstressed, which will produce about 430lb/ft

Big Block 2.57kgs/lbft
Small Block 2.44kgs/lbft
A different GD with its toys 1.53kgs/lbft :D

williamsdad
08-01-05, 10:13 PM
Re GD new 427 body shape, found a snip of info from a advert in classic car magazine advertising one of these for sale, AC cobra lightweight one of only 26 built 1994.no price but gave engine spec & . car was in herts & right hand drive.
I found it doind a search for ac cobra lightweight.
hope this minght help.

dave
09-01-05, 10:15 AM
Hi Pete.
I'll build anything M8, It's just that I am able to offer the best value for money (It would seem) with the Dax builds.

All.
Or should I get my calculator out and put some numbers together for:-
GD
AK
Crendon
Kirkham.

I'd like to stick with the higher end stuff as the Sierra based cars are just as hard to build but people expect the labour charges to be less. A bit like expecting a pair of Jeans from ASDA to be easier to put on that a pair from Armani. :thumb:

For what it's worth I've done some quick calculations. These are based on what prices are available from the respective websites and may be out of date but for cars based around the spec. of the £26,500 Dax car listed on the For sale page of my website.
AK..............£27,000
GD..............£30,800
No info for Crendon or Kirkham at all yet.

I will look into this further when i get chance. :thumb:

gd02 cob
09-01-05, 11:20 AM
Dave,

For the GD is that Jag or Euro ?

Nick

dave
09-01-05, 11:57 AM
Hi Nick.
That would be for the Jag, for the Euro the price difference would be whatever GD say.

osgood
10-01-05, 09:22 AM
Hi guys heres another couple of pictures for you AC Super Blower displayed at Costco Watford some years ago and what LUVERLY Viper arches she has!!!! :)

As Robert said earlier Viper arches or not they must be near to the original. I do beleive the Viper was copied from the Shelby Dragon Snake and body measurements are within inches of the original :rolleyes: :thumb: Osgood.

osgood
10-01-05, 09:36 AM
Nice dash!! :) :rolleyes: Think I took these pictures around 1998-99 Osgood :thumb:

Steve
10-01-05, 03:13 PM
The new shape can use deeper dishes on the front and rears than the current car does.

Having seen the car "in the flesh", there are lots of minor differences dimensionally, and lots more "curve" to the new body. The most noticable measurable difference is that the cockpit depth is greater, meaning the dash to floor measurement is some 2 inches greater in the new shape vs current shape

It is also a little longer in the cockpit than the existing car. The piccies (in a flat grey resin colour) do not do justice to the curves of the car.

Steve
10-01-05, 03:30 PM
will the GD of either shape only accept small blocks?

I know there is a chap using a C5r block 7 litre ali LS type block in a GD, so 7 litres, weighs about the same as a ls1.......and if thats not enough the TWIN turbos should make it just a tad quicker

dave
10-01-05, 03:39 PM
" within inches of the original ":rolleyes: :thumb: Osgood.[/quote:22d094178c]


........Inches? Yeah........but 14 of them???????

The Viper front arches are the way they are so that a std full width Jag front subframe could fit under there, nothing to do with DragonSnakes. :finger: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

osgood
10-01-05, 04:42 PM
Viper 427 Selby racer

Length 13' 13'
Width 5'6" 5'8:5"
Height 4" 4'1"
Wheel base 90" 90"
Track 60" 56"F 58"R
Ground clearance 5" -------------
Kerb weight kl 1023 kl 977

Dave look above, there is not a lot of difference as I said inches! :finger: Also worth a mention the Jaguar base Viper does not use a sub frame front or rear :finger: So in that light the wide arches at the front have nothing at all to with getting the wheels within the body. The rear uses full width Jaguar so the off set on the wheels tends to be in-board, apart from my own car which is fitted with replicas that were fitted to a Dax. And just for the record intentionally or not the Viper is very similar to the Dragon Snake which I believe there were very few made Osgood :) :thumb:

dave
10-01-05, 05:41 PM
Eric.
The big front wing Cobra kits were done like that to accept a full width Jag front end(I read this somewhere about 15-20 years ago)......I don't care what the later sales literature says. Just because the Viper doesn't use the full width front end doesn't mean that the body was specially designed for it, more like that Viper were able to get there hands on a wide body kit to rip a mould off.
If a Std original cobra was to have wheels made that would fit the std axle width and still fill the wider viper style arches they would be wider than the back ones and look rediculous . ( Cobra axles were the same width, the flared arches allowes wider wheels to be fitted to the slab side 289. A regular Cobra can handle 8" wide front wheels and from what you state above the Viper arches are designed for 10" wide at the front...I don't think so).
I'm not guessing, it's true....Do your homework. :finger: :D ;)

dave
10-01-05, 05:49 PM
Eric.
If you take a look at your car in your gallery you will see:-
that if you cut off the front arch and made your car a slab side you wouldn't have enough room left to fit a wheel with a 125 tyre on a 2" rim whereas on a 289 they had wider wheels than 2".................As I said your axle is too wide and if it was narrow enough then to fill the arches you would have 10" wide wheels on the front.
Your front end is 4" wider than the dragon in your list...................
Summary:- Viper is 4" too wide which is about 2" per side wider than the regular 427 clones. :thumb:

ldtopham
11-01-05, 08:13 AM
I have to agree with Steve, having seen the car recently at GD the it looks really nice 'in the flesh'. Much more curvature to the body. I think it looks very good and have one on order too!

osgood
11-01-05, 08:22 AM
Eric.
The big front wing Cobra kits were done like that to accept a full width Jag front end(I read this somewhere about 15-20 years ago)......I don't care what the later sales literature says. Just because the Viper doesn't use the full width front end doesn't mean that the body was specially designed for it, more like that Viper were able to get there hands on a wide body kit to rip a mould off.
If a Std original cobra was to have wheels made that would fit the std axle width and still fill the wider viper style arches they would be wider than the back ones and look rediculous . ( Cobra axles were the same width, the flared arches allowes wider wheels to be fitted to the slab side 289. A regular Cobra can handle 8" wide front wheels and from what you state above the Viper arches are designed for 10" wide at the front...I don't think so).
I'm not guessing, it's true....Do your homework. :finger: :D ;)
Dave I don't quite know where you are going with all this except disappearing up your own rear end! One minute you are suggesting all the big winged kits were done like that to accept the full width front end which I agree with, and in the next breath you say the Viper does not take the full width front end & an earlier statement you suggest the Jaguar base Viper uses the Jaguar sub frame. The measurement I quoted re body sizes are total amount including arches on both vehicles. I don't recall ever suggesting the Viper was intended to have 10" front wheels although my vehicle does have 9" Dax wheels at the front with 225X15X50 tyres and they sit nicely inside the arches well within SVA limits:confused: Don't think its me that should be doing my home work mate Eric :)

osgood
11-01-05, 08:29 AM
Eric.
If you take a look at your car in your gallery you will see:-
that if you cut off the front arch and made your car a slab side you wouldn't have enough room left to fit a wheel with a 125 tyre on a 2" rim whereas on a 289 they had wider wheels than 2".................As I said your axle is too wide and if it was narrow enough then to fill the arches you would have 10" wide wheels on the front.
Your front end is 4" wider than the dragon in your list...................
Summary:- Viper is 4" too wide which is about 2" per side wider than the regular 427 clones. :thumb:
Dave anything you say matey just to keep the peace as we seem to be going round in circles I quite like the look of the new GD anyway even though it has wide front arches rather like the Mk4 Super Blower which I illistrated earlier. Osgood :angel: :rolleyes:

tonym
11-01-05, 03:04 PM
All i can say is that it's about time that GD made their bodyshells more curvy, you know like the Sumo :D , nice to see they are getting more like Britains best selling cobra replica :thumb:

Paul B
12-01-05, 08:15 AM
Tony, Tony, Tony !!!!

To suggest that a GD is getting anywhere near as pretty as the Sumo will only cause trouble !!!!

I must say, however, that I think it is a wise move on GD's part to get a bit more original in shape and I like the slightly extended front arches that also act as a bit of a mudflap behind the front wheel. I had noticed this on other genuine Cobra's and wondered why most copies didn't have this feature unless it was only on later models ?

Paul

Steve
12-01-05, 10:53 AM
I was flicking through one of Legates "cobra books" last night, and looking at the piccies of original cars, and reading what actually left the factory in Thames Ditton headed for SAI, there was a real mix of arch shapes and flares apparent on those 60’sl cars, for example some SC cars had wide arched bodies made originally for racing were sold on as road cars, ( the arch being widened originally to accomodate wider tyres), then reverting to narrower arches when those bodies ran out. Subsequently the arches were widened again as customers preferred them, There are also pictures which show the front arches of original 60's cars which look identical to the MKIV GD arches. So you had 2 original SC cars leaving the factory, one after the other with quite different arch profiles, and looking at the 2 side by side they are clearly different, but both absolutely correct.


I often think that whilst it is possible to replicate a specific cobra in fine detail at a specific point in its history, such that you could say "this is a replica of CSX 3123 in july 1964, back in the 60's there were many variations of the theme depending on what happened to be available in the factory at the time, and what the car was destined to be used for, that an overall cobra shape that would be absolutely correct simply doesn’t exist!

There are cars which are considered exact copies of the original (a single original I should say), such as Kirkham, which was produced by digitising one side of an original car and producing a mirror image to make a whole car (they digitised one half because the two sided were significantly different from each other, and this was a guaranteed undamaged original!) so even the wonderfully manufactured & revered kirkham is a modified development of an original, not an exact copy.

The point is that to produce a replica cobra is somewhat difficult given that there a number of variants of the “definitive original cobra”, and the chaps that have best done what people perceive to be just that, kirkham, have in fact not done that at all, but built a more symmetrical version, but one that is definitely not an exact copy, but a more developed copy.

There are also a few stunning pictures in there of the MkIV, a silver one and a red one I recall, as well as a whole bunch of warehouse shots of aluminium MkIV in process, which were the last of the cobs made by AC, and as far as I can see, are exactly the same as the body GD now have.

I have the MkIV body on order from GD, and I have no doubt that I will have a perfect replica of one of the the last cobras ( and as far as most are concerned the best in terms of manufacture and panel work) that were ever made by AC….and that’s original enough for me!

Miket
12-01-05, 10:57 AM
Well put mate, what are you doing with the body youv'e got now ????

Shaney23
12-01-05, 12:33 PM
Hi Guys,
I like the "new" body and as a bonus it is slightly larger in the cockpit area (only an inch or so here and there) but usefull with my slightly agricultural beam, so, coz of a bit of extra room plus a slightly more agressive look I ordered one a while ago. No3 I think
Regards Shane

Steve
12-01-05, 12:40 PM
don't know yet, knowing how much work goes into cutting back flash lines, finishing, polishing, measuring locations etc........ perhaps someone will want to buy a body thats already fully polished, cured, with all the holes pre cut, and without the 9 month wait........we'll see

Anyway, I guess it'll be a while at least before the MkIV is produced, so roll on No 1

Steve
12-01-05, 12:49 PM
Shane

I really could do with a cob about 6 inches wider and longer in the cockpit than any that currently exist, but I agree that there is much more room in the MKIV than the current MkIII, especially useful for those of us who obviously enjoy their food!

Steve
12-01-05, 12:52 PM
Another option is to sell my car and build another from scratch, quite fancy the 427 ci LS2 small block that are now available..... dont think the wife will go for that though

Adrian472
12-01-05, 03:48 PM
Is GD Cars going to offer an original style dash and roll bar as well, i think that would finish the car off completely.

Adrian

Steve
12-01-05, 03:56 PM
Adrian, you have to ask them, but given the commitment that GD put into their cars (the new T70 is stunningly well built, and I have seen the many hours of work going into correctly mounting and aligning the MkIV body to the GD chassis and "tub") I am sure that GD will do a "proper job"!!!

Andy302
12-01-05, 04:54 PM
I dont know where we got with the AC/Autocraft/MKIV debate but I was in Toffen nr Bern in Switzerland yesterday on business, when I came across the old timers auction centre/car gallery. check out http://www.oldtimergalerie.ch/e/inhalt.htm . Check out We offer...:p

I was wandering around drooling over the first of many rooms full of classics when I found pic1. I have never seen an Enzo in the flesh, and certainly never been able to leave nose marks on the glass!! :thumb: Its brake discs were bigger than my Novas wheels! If we wanted Im sure we could have opened the doors, but I didnt, call me a wuss!:o
So many cars, BMW M1 pace cars (3 off) used for racing, Ferrari's, Alphas, Jags, Maserati's, Lancia's. it was a dream place to be! :D :D :D
Not all are for sale, some are stored until the weekend until they go out for rallies/shows etc.

Then in another room I came across the cobra in the pics. A MKIV autocraft up for 105,000 CHF (70,000 €, £47,595) so I took some pics of the side!

Do these help the debate?

Cheers

osgood
12-01-05, 05:20 PM
Shane

I really could do with a cob about 6 inches wider and longer in the cockpit than any that currently exist, but I agree that there is much more room in the MKIV than the current MkIII, especially useful for those of us who obviously enjoy their food!
Steve yes, well said matey as you say there are many variants even originals whatever they may be! As long as you are happy with your mark who gives a shiiiiE!! I even think Ram did a wide front arch model looking very Viper like Dax is not all things to all men! :D :rolleyes:

I had to read your post twice mate I thought you said Knob not cob!!!! Still we can all dream :) :thumb:

williamsdad
12-01-05, 07:13 PM
Hi Regarding the new shape GD accepting Big block engines.

I will be fitting the new LS7 engine coupled to a t56 box this engine in crate bog standard form produces 450 hp, with new cam & slight tweeking of the intake manifold will hopefully develop 550hp & 540lb of torque.
Awaiting dyno tests to confirm this mod. The new LS 7 engine is 7 litre all ali motor.

Dyno tests done already on LS6 engine with same mods produced 477 hp & 460lb of torque.
330lb of torque at 1500rpm. hope this helps

london
12-01-05, 07:14 PM
Autokraft were given a 25 year licence by AC Cars in the early 80's to use the AC logo. Early models, the Autokraft AC Mk IVs, were exported to the US and had a longer nose than the 60s Mk III. Brian Angliss subsequently bought AC which was eventually merged with Autokraft (not sure when). The Autokraft AC Mk IV then became the AC Mk IV. The most desirable version of the Mk IV is the early 90s Lightweight with the short nose, the shape GD are using.

dave
12-01-05, 07:42 PM
Hi Regarding the new shape GD accepting Big block engines.

I will be fitting the new LS7 engine coupled to a t56 box this engine in crate bog standard form produces 450 hp, with new cam & slight tweeking of the intake manifold will hopefully develop 550hp & 540lb of torque.
Awaiting dyno tests to confirm this mod. The new LS 7 engine is 7 litre all ali motor.

Dyno tests done already on LS6 engine with same mods produced 477 hp & 460lb of torque.
330lb of torque at 1500rpm. hope this helps



H Williamsdad.
Are you aware that the T56 gearbox is only rated to 400Ft Lb of torque? For that engine you really ought to be using a Tremec TKO 600. :thumb:

Adrian472
12-01-05, 09:47 PM
Williamsdad, tell us more about this LS7 engine. I dont know anything about this engine, is it from the new Corvette? Where you buying this engine from? Im not a chevy man but i interested to know!

I think Dave is right about the T56 not being upto the job, you should be using a TKO 600 aleast with that amount of torque.

Adrian

Steve
13-01-05, 08:39 AM
williamsdad

do you mean the Ls7, or the LS2? The LS7 afaik is not yet released for sale, though it will be later this year

perhaps Andy has a more direct line into GM than I thought!

Steve
13-01-05, 08:52 AM
Adrian

The LS7 for the 2006 vette from GM press release

LS7 7.0-liter/427-cubic-inch Gen IV V-8 with lightweight reciprocating components
• 500 horsepower (373 kw) at6200 rpm
• 475 lb.-ft. of torque (657 Nm) at 4800 rpm
• 7000 rpm redline
• Titanium connecting rods and intake valves
• Dry-sump engine lubrication system
• Engine hand-built at GM’s new Performance Build Center
LS7 engine
The all-new LS7 of the ’06 Z06 reintroduces the 427-cubic-inch engine to the Corvette lineup. Unlike the previous 427 engine, which was a big-block design, the new 7.0-liter LS7 is a small-block V-8 – the largest-displacement small-block ever produced by GM and a tribute to its 50 years as a performance icon.
With 500 horsepower and 475 lb.-ft. of torque, it also is the most powerful passenger car engine ever produced by Chevrolet and GM. The LS7 is easily identified under the hood by red engine covers with black lettering.
The LS7 shares the same basic Gen IV V-8 architecture as the Corvette’s 6.0-liter LS2, but the LS7 uses a different cylinder block casting with pressed-in steel cylinder liners to accommodate the engine’s wide, 104.8-mm-wide cylinder bores; the LS2 has 101.6-mm bores. And when compared to the LS2, the LS7 also has a different front cover, oil pan, exhaust manifolds and cylinder heads.
Internally, the LS7’s reciprocating components make use of racing-derived lightweight technology, including titanium connecting rods and intake valves, to help boost horsepower and rpm capability. The rpm fuel shut-off limit is 7000 rpm.
The LS7’s specifications include:
• Unique cylinder block casting with large, 104.8-mm bores and pressed-in cylinder liners
• Forged steel main bearing caps
• Forged steel crankshaft
• Titanium connecting rods with 101.6-mm stroke
• Forged aluminum flat-top pistons
• 11.0:1 compression
• Dry-sump oiling system
• Camshaft with .591-inch lift
• Racing-derived CNC-ported aluminum cylinder heads with titanium intake valves and sodium-filled exhaust valves
• Titanium pushrods and valve springs
• Low-restriction air intake system
• Hydroformed exhaust headers with unique “quad flow” collector flanges.
“In many ways, the LS7 is a racing engine in a street car,” said Dave Muscaro, assistant chief engineer of small-block V-8 for passenger cars. “We’ve taken much of what we’ve learned over the years from the 7.0-liter C5-R racing program and instilled it here. There really has been nothing else like it offered in a GM production vehicle.”
One of the clearest examples of the LS7’s race-bred technology is its use of titanium connecting rods. They weigh just 480 grams apiece, almost 30 percent less than the rods in the LS2 V-8. Besides being lightweight, which enhances high-rpm performance and rpm range, titanium makes the rods extremely durable.
The LS7’s CNC-ported aluminum cylinder heads are all-new and designed to meet the high airflow demands of the engine’s 7.0-liter displacement, as it ingests approximately 100 cubic feet more air per minute than the Corvette’s 6.0-liter LS2 V-8 – an 18-percent increase in airflow. Consequently, a hydraulic roller camshaft with .591/.591-inch valve lift is used to allow plenty of air to circulate in and out of the engine.
To ensure optimal, uninterrupted airflow, the LS7’s heads have straight, tunnel-like intake runners. Very large by production-vehicle standards – even racing standards – they are designed to maintain fast airflow velocity, providing excellent torque at low rpm and exhilarating horsepower at high rpm. The heads feature 70-cc combustion chambers which are fed by huge, 56-mm-diameter titanium intake valves. The lightweight titanium valves weigh 21grams less than the stainless steel valves used in the LS2, despite the valve head having 22 percent more area. They are complemented by 41-mm sodium-filled exhaust valves, vs. 39.4-mm valves in the LS2. To accommodate the large valve face diameters, the heads’ valve seats are siamesed; and, taken from experience with the engines of C5-R racecars, the LS7’s valve angles are held at 12 degrees – versus 15 degrees for the LS2 – to enhance airflow through the ports.
All LS7 engines are assembled by hand at GM Powertrain’s new Performance Build Center in Wixom , Mich. The exacting standards to which they are built include deck-plate honing of the cylinders – a procedure normally associated with the building of racing engines and almost unheard of in a production-vehicle engine.
Dry sump oiling system
The LS7 has a dry-sump oiling system designed to keep the engine fully lubricated during the high cornering loads the Corvette Z06 is capable of producing. An engine compartment-mounted 8-quart reservoir delivers oil at a constant pressure to a conventional-style oil pump pick-up at the bottom of the engine. The pressurized oil feed keeps the oil pick-up continually immersed in oil at cornering loads exceeding 1 g.
Oil circulates through the engine and down to the oil pan, where it is sent back to the reservoir via a scavenge pump. The large-capacity reservoir, combined with a high efficiency air-to-oil cooler, provides necessary engine oil cooling under the demands of the engine’s power output. With the dry-sump system, oil is added to the engine via the reservoir tank – which includes the oil level dipstick.
The LS7’s dry-sump system was developed and tested on racetracks in the United States and Europe , including Germany ’s famed Nürburgring. And while common in racing cars, the Corvette Z06 is one of just a handful of production vehicles – and the only production Corvette – to ever incorporate such a high-performance oiling system.

a 427 ali smallblock that is a direct replacement for my 350c c LS1..............now where's the checkbook!

williamsdad
13-01-05, 08:57 PM
Dave, Adrian, & steve, thanks for your comments, Firstly the t56 borg warner gear box is out of a doge viper & is rated at 600hp, Andy from GD has bought 2 of these from a crash test site, have 2000 miles worth of work.
The LS7 engine will hopefully be available this autumn, it is the new 2006 mk1V generation motors & has a new designed Block. still a small block but produces 500 hp in standard form / 475 lb of torque. redlines at 7,000rpm and has 427 cubic inches 7 litre. you van find all the tech stuff on the websites just do a search for LS7 engine specs and choose a site there are loads of bumf.
Hope this helps. I am going to wait for this engine to put in my GD 427. the build time runs into sept. so what the heck it will be on the road for spring 2006 no point in rushing into a car when can have the dog Bxxxxx in a couple of months

williamsdad
13-01-05, 09:01 PM
Steve, found the info hey, makes for some good reading hey & exeptional fun,
Andy from GD recons 285 tyres will be the max width to fit on the new body, hope they can hold the traction.

dave
13-01-05, 09:22 PM
285's........Nah!
On the Dax De Dion rear 8.0L Shelby block car breaks traction in the first 4 gears with Toyo proxy 295's when it is "On song"...............And in a straight line. That's what big blocks with 600 Ft Lb of torque do.


Have fun and don't forget your brown trousers.

williamsdad
13-01-05, 10:57 PM
Yep, My thoughts exactly, will have to see if the arches can be made a bit wider to take 345s should get a bit more grip? however have been in a test with andy from GD and the car with 420lb of torque on full tilt struggled to loose traction on full song with 255s the car just dug in and flew.

dave
14-01-05, 06:27 AM
Hi Williamsdad.
Exactly, 420 Ft Lb is fine but 600 is another matter.
Are you planning on having the Euro chasssis, you are going to need all the help you can get to put the power down if you tweek up that big block.

Steve
14-01-05, 08:39 AM
Robs new blower setup will produce in excess of 600 ftlb, thats running 285, so I guess well soon see how well the chassis, suspension and tyre combination work in terms of power to tarmac!

Elvington will be a blast!

Dave, do you know if Dax are going?, it'd be a great opportunity to see how the new chassis/suspension and that big block perform on the track

Steve
14-01-05, 08:48 AM
It should be great, though looking at the GM bumf ( handbuilt in GM performance shop)I think the LS7 will carry a good price tag.

are you going to build this yourself, or is this going to be a factory build?

robert
14-01-05, 09:43 AM
285's........Nah!
On the Dax De Dion rear 8.0L Shelby block car breaks traction in the first 4 gears with Toyo proxy 295's when it is "On song"...............And in a straight line. That's what big blocks with 600 Ft Lb of torque do.


Have fun and don't forget your brown trousers.Big block or small block doesn't matter, 600lb/ft is 600lb/ft whatever the configuration. My old engine with only 550lb/ft would only break traction in 1st in the GD, and would dig in in 2nd and fly, and that was with 245s. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Steve
14-01-05, 01:22 PM
"My old engine with only 550lb/ft ......................."

showoff!

robert
14-01-05, 01:59 PM
"My old engine with only 550lb/ft ......................."

showoff!
Actually, to clarify. My current engine with the old blower. The new blower gives me more boost. :thumb: :thumb:

Steve
14-01-05, 02:59 PM
yep....saw it at GD recently

I thought it was about done apart from the blower belts we spoke about at le mans.

Whens it back OTR?

did you go with the d1sc?

williamsdad
14-01-05, 03:33 PM
A British built monster on its way,

Just had a email from andrew burrows at GD saying they intend to launch the new 427 lightweight body complete with new 427 LS7 engine. once the engine comes available. so watch this space the car will be based on the euro chasis.

It will be a super perfomance 427 with all new engine new body and of course superb chasis, regarding the tyre size 285s will be just fine and should cause little wheelspin if correctly applied.
The new engine LS7 is 7litre capacity but only the same size of a smallblock weighs in at 330lb.
Cast iron big block 550- 650lb in weight?
so the new generation MK1V engine will be unbeatable in my oppinion

robert
14-01-05, 07:48 PM
yep....saw it at GD recently

I thought it was about done apart from the blower belts we spoke about at le mans.

Whens it back OTR?

did you go with the d1sc?
It is done, just got to put it back together now, back on the road in Feb/March just in time for the summer. The P1SC is the one I went for, enough boost but not too big. :D

dave
14-01-05, 09:26 PM
Big block or small block doesn't matter, 600lb/ft is 600lb/ft whatever the configuration. My old engine with only 550lb/ft would only break traction in 1st in the GD, and would dig in in 2nd and fly, and that was with 245s. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:



I was comparing 420 to 600.
If the opportunity arises again I'll have to check it on good dry ground. Never the less, you know that the De Dion rear is not going to suffer from camber change under straightline accelleration, so should have as good a grip as anything with independent rear suspension. :thumb:

dave
14-01-05, 09:32 PM
Elvington will be a blast!

Dave, do you know if Dax are going?, it'd be a great opportunity to see how the new chassis/suspension and that big block perform on the track[/quote:1e5474f7e2]

I don't know if they will be there or not. Gary may come up but he won't be on official business, he'll just be borrowing the demo car for his day off. :thumb:

robert
14-01-05, 09:32 PM
I was comparing 420 to 600.
If the opportunity arises again I'll have to check it on good dry ground. Never the less, you know that the De Dion rear is not going to suffer from camber change under straightline accelleration, so should have as good a grip as anything with independent rear suspension. :thumb:
I will await Elvington with interest. ;) ;) :thumb:

dave
14-01-05, 09:42 PM
I will await Elvington with interest. ;) ;) :thumb:


Are there some De Dion Daxes booked in?
And will they have been back to the factory for a suspension set up ?????

Miket
14-01-05, 09:47 PM
Does Plod count, will he still have it :confused: :confused:

robert
15-01-05, 09:48 AM
Are there some De Dion Daxes booked in?
And will they have been back to the factory for a suspension set up ?????
Not yet, but maybe Dax will put their hands in their pockets and support the club..........

dave
15-01-05, 04:50 PM
Not yet, but maybe Dax will put their hands in their pockets and support the club..........



..............I had hear that the Pope would be attending also!!!
Why would they put money into the GD track day, sorry the Elvington Cobra Club weekender........Oh what have i said???? :D :D :D
Dax do advertise in Snake torque so I hear (havent recieved a copy for some time)
And they pay for a banner here.......Who else does?

On a serious note though, have any other manufacturers contributed to the Elvington bash? :thumb:

osgood
15-01-05, 07:05 PM
God Dave is the Pope attending must get Christened at someday time!!! Must say it does looks like closed shop a (Cheque Book Charlie day (TVR) ) Osgood:angel: :rolleyes:

dave
15-01-05, 07:22 PM
God Dave is the Pope attending must get Christened at someday time!!! Must say it does looks like closed shop a (Cheque Book Charlie day (TVR) ) Osgood:angel: :rolleyes:


....Does, doesn't it. The last time I looked there were about 20 GD's and one or two from each of the other main manufacturers.

I don't mind though, I'm going just for something to do. Should be fun, it was last time. :thumb: :thumb:.........once the dead pig arrived. :D ....Or was it a cow? Can't remember now.

robert
15-01-05, 07:28 PM
God Dave is the Pope attending must get Christened at someday time!!! Must say it does looks like closed shop a (Cheque Book Charlie day (TVR) ) Osgood:angel: :rolleyes:
Maybe it just goes to show that GD owners are more than happy to take their cars on the circuit, maybe other are not so sure................

Cheque book charlie, osgood, you are talking out of your backside again.

robert
15-01-05, 07:31 PM
..............I had hear that the Pope would be attending also!!!
Why would they put money into the GD track day, sorry the Elvington Cobra Club weekender........Oh what have i said???? :D :D :D
Dax do advertise in Snake torque so I hear (havent recieved a copy for some time)
And they pay for a banner here.......Who else does?

On a serious note though, have any other manufacturers contributed to the Elvington bash? :thumb:
GD track day, absolute rubbish. Just because GDs are prepared to go out on the circuit, and have faith that the cars handle well, and are prepared to support the club, is neither here nor there, the offer is open to ANYONE in the club.

dave
15-01-05, 07:45 PM
GD track day, absolute rubbish. Just because GDs are prepared to go out on the circuit, and have faith that the cars handle well, and are prepared to support the club, is neither here nor there, the offer is open to ANYONE in the club.



Quick, get me the landing net, I've hooked a monster. :D :D :D

Happy Jim
15-01-05, 08:10 PM
Quick, get me the landing net, I've hooked a monster. :D :D :D
...Said the actress to the bishop

robert
15-01-05, 09:53 PM
Quick, get me the landing net, I've hooked a monster. :D :D :D
Today is not a good day.............................

osgood
16-01-05, 09:06 AM
Maybe it just goes to show that GD owners are more than happy to take their cars on the circuit, maybe other are not so sure................

Cheque book charlie, osgood, you are talking out of your backside again.
AHH but Robert the best tomatoes are grown in sh----t!!!! Osgood:)



"EXPLORING" The biggest and the most exiting region left to discover is the unknown territory of your mind even if it is up your arse;) have a nice day now:thumb:

williamsdad
16-01-05, 11:42 AM
Just wondered if the Dax cars dont handle as good as a GD, any one have any actual stats,

My thought is with Daxs Big block car weighing around 1300kg against a gd weighing 1000kg then I would put my money on the GD . just my thought. more weiwight more momentum ect even the power to weight ratios stack towards a GD .

Would like some onest construcive oppinions.

Dutch Paul
16-01-05, 12:17 PM
By all accounts the new De Dion chassis is better handling than the original Dax chassis. I haven`t heard of/seen yet how a De Dion compares with a GD Jag or GD Euro chassis yet. Maybe one of the Dax cars will risk a few laps at Elvington??????
It could be interesting :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

williamsdad
16-01-05, 01:14 PM
Dutch Paul, Thanks for the reply , When is the Elvington track day ? as I would like to attend.

dave
16-01-05, 02:01 PM
Just wondered if the Dax cars dont handle as good as a GD, any one have any actual stats,

My thought is with Daxs Big block car weighing around 1300kg against a gd weighing 1000kg then I would put my money on the GD . just my thought. more weiwight more momentum ect even the power to weight ratios stack towards a GD .

Would like some onest construcive oppinions.


Hi Williamsdad.
To put things on a level playing field:-

A Dax with a small Block Chevy weighs around 1100 Kilos(Inc. full 17 Gal fuel tank, stainless engine bay cladding, twin braced roll bars, front anti roll bar, front and rear nudge bars).

A GD with a Small Block Chevy weighs around 950 Kilos (I am told, though I don't know how loaded the GD is at this weight with things such as roll bars, nudge bars, fuel tank capacity etc).

So there will be a power to weight advantage to the GD also the potential cornering speeds will be better because of the weight.
The longer rear driveshafts and wishbones on the Gd will also improve handling( Less camber change under suspension loading) but the "Cobra look" (Bucket wheels)(Some might say)has to be sacrificed to a degree.
There could be other issues relating to where the respective cars have thier weight (Centre of gravity height / weight distrubution F/R ratio)

The above is assuming that both cars have std Ser. 111 XJ 6 running gear.

I don't know what a GD Euro weighs but I would think it was less than their std. chassis.
The Dax De dion weghs around the same as the std chassis.
As the Dax De Dion Chassis and the GD Euro chassis options both cost more than the std chassis options then no cross range comparisons would be fair whatever the outcome of side by side testing.

The only true comparison would be to side by side test two factory built examples as amateur built cars could vary too much.

At the moment you would probably find the best handling order would run:-
GD Euro.
GD Jag.
Dax std.
The Dax De Dion is too much of an unknown quantity at the moment as there are too few on the road, it is known that it has masses more grip than the std Dax chassis but whether this turns out to be more than either of the Gd chassis is another thing.



How's that for diplomatic! :thumb: :thumb:

dave
16-01-05, 02:05 PM
By all accounts the new De Dion chassis is better handling than the original Dax chassis. I haven`t heard of/seen yet how a De Dion compares with a GD Jag or GD Euro chassis yet. Maybe one of the Dax cars will risk a few laps at Elvington??????
It could be interesting :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Hi Tinka.
The only problem there is that there will be some owners who will stop at nothing to prove a point, and could make things dangerous.




Just my opinion.

I type too slow.

gd02 cob
16-01-05, 02:43 PM
Dave,

If its any help my GD euro chassis with SBC weighs in at an all up weight with me @ 1179 kilos.

Weights are Left front 282 Right front 281 47.8%
Left rear 290 Right rear 326 52.8%

Nick

dave
16-01-05, 03:11 PM
Dave,

If its any help my GD euro chassis with SBC weighs in at an all up weight with me @ 1179 kilos.

Weights are Left front 282 Right front 281 47.8%
Left rear 290 Right rear 326 52.8%

Nick

Hi Nick.
......................But how heavy are you?

Miket
16-01-05, 03:21 PM
Hi Nick.
......................But how heavy are you? 326 - 290 = 36kilo X 2.2lbs = 79.2 lbs divide by 14 = a 5 stone 6lbs weakling. :D :D :D:thumb:

gd02 cob
16-01-05, 03:29 PM
1096kgs, thats the car not me !

dave
16-01-05, 03:41 PM
1096kgs, thats the car not me !

Cheers Nick.
Mik's blowing it out of his A** as usual.

I just checked and the last Dax I took weighed in at 1127 Kilos.
So the GD has an advantage of 31 Kilos....give or take..

gd02 cob
16-01-05, 03:56 PM
No doubt there will be lighter GD's but I have a lot of extra weight with a full fire system and an oil accumulator system, roll bars, fenders, traction control, steel frame mount for the twin fans, perspex wind deflector etc etc. I need not see weight watching as a priority with the Fastco Daryl special engine !!

Oh yes and think how heavy it would be with some of the badges some owners see necessary to fit !!!

Nick

williamsdad
16-01-05, 04:32 PM
So a GD fitted with a LS6 engine with all the bits on & one roll bar weighs in at only 950kg
& produces a standard405hp Hmm 50% 50% weight distribution gives this car the right amount of weight distribution & power to weight increase over say a cast iron SBC.
will make the GD the better handling car out of any other combinations I know of other manufacturers.

Just fishing for the best car for track & road handling, at top of my list at the moment is the GD using the LS6 engine .

My ultimate car will be the new GD427 lightweight model with LS7 engine. 500hp of standard motor 7000rpm limit 50 50 weight distribution & 920kg.

any one have any comments on the above GD

gd02 cob
16-01-05, 04:39 PM
My understanding is that you benefit from having a slight bias in weight to the rear, so that under braking you obtain a 50/50 split, and under acceleration the slight rear weight bias gives better traction.

But I expect you could argue all day about weights.


Nick

dave
16-01-05, 04:57 PM
So a GD fitted with a LS6 engine with all the bits on & one roll bar weighs in at only 950kg
& produces a standard405hp Hmm 50% 50% weight distribution gives this car the right amount of weight distribution & power to weight increase over say a cast iron SBC.
will make the GD the better handling car out of any other combinations I know of other manufacturers.

Just fishing for the best car for track & road handling, at top of my list at the moment is the GD using the LS6 engine .

My ultimate car will be the new GD427 lightweight model with LS7 engine. 500hp of standard motor 7000rpm limit 50 50 weight distribution & 920kg.

any one have any comments on the above GD



Seeing as the LS7 is a big block then you are unlikely to end up with a car that is lighter that one with the LS6 engine.

50/50 weight distribution will also depend on how heavy you are.
A lot of the bike engined super 7 guys get all excited about how light their car is but in their case a car that weighs around 450 kilos is not a true representation because the weight of the driver is proportionally much greater than the same driver in a a cobr that weighs twice as much.(I don't know why i went off on that tangent, probably a round about way of saying that if you weigh more than 10-12 stone go on a diet cos it's free power to weight).
You already seem to be sold on the GD and if it's what you like you won't be dissapointed.
However, have you been out in the Dax De Dion demonstrator? then you would have something to compare against. I am not trying to sell Daxes over GD here though it might seem that way. The reasons are:-
1.I get no commission from Dax.
2. The more other people order from Dax the longer it takes for me to get kits.
3. I will probably end up answering questions on how to build it (Which i don't mind but it doesn't earn me any money. And i'm into Cobras because it's my job). :thumb:
If you did get a ride in both GD's and the Dax's demo cars perhaps you could post your findings on here.

Dutch Paul
16-01-05, 05:59 PM
Hi Tinka.
The only problem there is that there will be some owners who will stop at nothing to prove a point, and could make things dangerous.




Just my opinion.

I type too slow.

Hi FRED :confused:

I see what you`re saying but why are people building these cars with zillions of horsepower if not to throw them round the track now and again? Trackdays are afterall an opportunity to find the limits of your/cars abilities. It doesn`t have to be a contact sport and there are plenty of grassy run-offs at Elvington. A stopwatch would be a perfect judge of handling ability.

Dutch Paul
16-01-05, 06:01 PM
Dutch Paul, Thanks for the reply , When is the Elvington track day ? as I would like to attend.


http://www.cobraclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10309

See you there - probably be in my own cobra in 2007 :mad: :mad:

williamsdad
16-01-05, 06:27 PM
Dave, Thanks for the reply, The new LS7 engine is a 7ltr engine produced in a new small block which is all aluminium & weighs in the same as a LS6 as it uses lighter conponents & is produced as a race engine that is perfectly at home on the road.
& reading about the spec of this engine which can be found on various sites try
www.corvettemuseum.com/specs/2006/LS7 which will explain all about the largest most powerfull SMALL Block ever built.
Belive me I am not sold on the GD I just cannot see how a other cobra or vehicle with a heavier weight around say 1300kg as the big block dax can outclass the lighter GD respective of how heavey the driver is as we have a difference of 380kg , 836lb or 60 stones.
I just think in my own oppinion the GD will produce the best results & with newer technology & better motors becoming available should we not move on & have the best of both worlds.
Totaly new engine Better torque curves better rev range alluminium gets rid of heat better than the old cast iron lumps & of corse the weight issue.
I would like to know what your thoughts and anyone elses are on this subject
Steve

williamsdad
16-01-05, 06:33 PM
Regarding the above site once you are redirected click on the new 2006 corvette Z06 and have a read about the LS7 engine.

dave
16-01-05, 07:11 PM
Dave, Thanks for the reply, The new LS7 engine is a 7ltr engine produced in a new small block which is all aluminium & weighs in the same as a LS6 as it uses lighter conponents & is produced as a race engine that is perfectly at home on the road.
& reading about the spec of this engine which can be found on various sites try
www.corvettemuseum.com/specs/2006/LS7 which will explain all about the largest most powerfull SMALL Block ever built.
Belive me I am not sold on the GD I just cannot see how a other cobra or vehicle with a heavier weight around say 1300kg as the big block dax can outclass the lighter GD respective of how heavey the driver is as we have a difference of 380kg , 836lb or 60 stones.
I just think in my own oppinion the GD will produce the best results & with newer technology & better motors becoming available should we not move on & have the best of both worlds.
Totaly new engine Better torque curves better rev range alluminium gets rid of heat better than the old cast iron lumps & of corse the weight issue.
I would like to know what your thoughts and anyone elses are on this subject
Steve


Hi Steve.
Sorry i was assuming that the LS7 was a big block.
As it is a small block you can see from the above posts from myself and GD02COB (Nick) that there is around thirty odd Kilos difference between the dax and the Gd when fitted with the same engine (Nick's car has the same engine as the car that I was using the weight from).
So the weight difference is only 30 rather than 380 Kilos if you were to fit the LS7 into a Dax rather than a GD.

Hi Dutch.
I find that a lot of cobra owners just want something that they can "nail" at the lights and pin them selves into the seat. This surely must be the case for the vast majority of Cobra owners as there are 1000's of them and only a small fraction of this number want to take their cars around Elvington.

robert
16-01-05, 08:05 PM
Hi Steve.
Sorry i was assuming that the LS7 was a big block.
As it is a small block you can see from the above posts from myself and GD02COB (Nick) that there is around thirty odd Kilos difference between the dax and the Gd when fitted with the same engine (Nick's car has the same engine as the car that I was using the weight from).
So the weight difference is only 30 rather than 380 Kilos if you were to fit the LS7 into a Dax rather than a GD.

Hi Dutch.
I find that a lot of cobra owners just want something that they can "nail" at the lights and pin them selves into the seat. This surely must be the case for the vast majority of Cobra owners as there are 1000's of them and only a small fraction of this number want to take their cars around Elvington.
Dave

From the Dax website.

Dimensions:
4040mm long, 1745mm wide, 1130mm high, 2280mm wheelbase, 1010kg weight (with Rover V8) ready to drive.

So, a Dax with a RV8 is 1010kg, and a GD with a RV8 is 950kgs, so the weight difference is 60kgs, and the GD weight is wet weight, can't comment on the Dax though but I would expect not, so you would also need to add 12 gallons of fuel to the dax figure.

Most people want a car they can squirt off the lights, but its not much good if it can't go round the roundabout after the lights at a decent speed.

Elvington or a roundabout, a bend or corner is the same wherever it is. :p

robert
16-01-05, 08:07 PM
PS, the GD Euro is as follows.


Weight: 950kgs (with Chevrolet 350 engine) :D :D

williamsdad
16-01-05, 08:25 PM
Thanks for the info,

I supose if you want to have the best of both worlds having a car that will pin you to the back of the seat from a standstill at the lights but grips & handles like a sports car should round corners & is good round any race circuit without being dangerous I know any car can be dangerous but you need to have faith in the cars ability and know what it can do.

So which car & setup would it be, if we all had that choice of car.

dave
16-01-05, 08:28 PM
Hi Rob.
I was wondering when you would put in an appearence.
D'ya think I have been diplomatic?
Are you proud of me? :D

I have given the benefit of the doubt throughout, so I think you should too.
What I was saying that 380Kilos was over the odds. but if you want to run with 60 then so be it.

RE: Lights and roundabouts.
What would i know, I've only sold 80 odd of the things and that's what the customers tell me.
Most (And by most I am talking 75%+) of the people who call me who want big power say that they want a car that they can blast up the high street once in a while. and less than 50% of the rest mention anything about track days and the most common answer is "Not a chance, I'm not paying that much for something I'm going to smash up".

Not me speaking........The people who buy the cars that I build. :thumb:

dave
16-01-05, 08:31 PM
Thanks for the info,

I supose if you want to have the best of both worlds having a car that will pin you to the back of the seat from a standstill at the lights but grips & handles like a sports car should round corners & is good round any race circuit without being dangerous I know any car can be dangerous but you need to have faith in the cars ability and know what it can do.

So which car & setup would it be, if we all had that choice of car.


Hi Steve.
You will find more people who will say go for the GD Euro. But at the moment that would be because there are only about 8 Dax De Dions on the road and most , if not all of them have gone to people who are not interested in the track.
If you want "Track" Record then the GD Euro has to be the one. If you want to stick you neck out and risk it then the other natural choice would be the Dax De Dion.

williamsdad
16-01-05, 08:40 PM
Dave, Guess its just me wanting that bit extra from a car & I dont mind taking the risks on a race track great for the adrenalin and just adds to the exitment of owning a great car & improves the drivers skill the more tracks you go on so in my oppinion every one with a fast car should go on the track with supervision first & know the limits of the cars ability.

The difference with the big block Dax correct me if I am Wrong I am sure i read it weighs in at 1300kg??thats where I got the weight difference from of 380kg against a 920kg lightweight GD.??

gd02 cob
16-01-05, 08:41 PM
I'm a bit confused. If as Rob states the GD Euro with a SBC is 950kgs, what is missing on that car to make the difference of 146 kgs between that weight and mine?

Nick

dave
16-01-05, 08:48 PM
Dave, Guess its just me wanting that bit extra from a car & I dont mind taking the risks on a race track great for the adrenalin and just adds to the exitment of owning a great car & improves the drivers skill the more tracks you go on so in my oppinion every one with a fast car should go on the track with supervision first & know the limits of the cars ability.

The difference with the big block Dax correct me if I am Wrong I am sure i read it weighs in at 1300kg??thats where I got the weight difference from of 380kg against a 920kg lightweight GD.??

Hi Steve.
I didn't know the weight of the Big Block Dax until you mentioned it.
I wasn't sure if you'd got the whole picture or thought that the dax was only available with the Big Block. As you can see though the big block car is quite a bit heavier that the same car with a small block fitted (173 Kilos), ;)

dave
16-01-05, 08:52 PM
I'm a bit confused. If as Rob states the GD Euro with a SBC is 950kgs, what is missing on that car to make the difference of 146 kgs between that weight and mine?

Nick



.....The hype!!..probably not a fair thing to say but if you are selling something on its lightness then you would pick a weight that didn't include lots of bells and whistles on the assumption that the end customer would want keep it as a light car by not adding all the bells and whistles.

Just my opinion Rob. :thumb:

robert
16-01-05, 08:58 PM
Hi Steve.
I didn't know the weight of the Big Block Dax until you mentioned it.
I wasn't sure if you'd got the whole picture or thought that the dax was only available with the Big Block. As you can see though the big block car is quite a bit heavier that the same car with a small block fitted (173 Kilos), ;)
But if you don't have a big block, you don't get 50/50 distribution. ;) ;)

robert
16-01-05, 09:01 PM
I'm a bit confused. If as Rob states the GD Euro with a SBC is 950kgs, what is missing on that car to make the difference of 146 kgs between that weight and mine?

Nick
Nick

No idea, depends what you have put into yours, it can depend on what components you have put into your engine, wheels, tyres, a whole host of things.

dave
16-01-05, 09:07 PM
Hey Nick.
Have you seen the film Aladdin??? there is this tiny little oil lamp but inside there is this big fat bloke who must weigh about 22 stone.
You don't have a genie hiding in your oil accumalator do you???

gd02 cob
16-01-05, 09:09 PM
Yes I understand that, but the difference is quite a bit. I would therefore think the 950kgs is a car without a lot of additions, like fenders and roll hoops etc.

Nick

williamsdad
16-01-05, 09:10 PM
Nick, you minght get your figures right now a Gd with LS6 which is the all aluminium engine weighs in at 950kg this engine weighs about 100kg less than a cast iron SBC
Hope this helps


Dave, would like to see the Dax Deion chasised car perform round a track before I would be convinced. are you planning to race one of these at any events?

robert
16-01-05, 09:13 PM
Yes I understand that, but the difference is quite a bit. I would therefore think the 950kgs is a car without a lot of additions, like fenders and roll hoops etc.

Nick
Have a chat with Andy, he will know the full facts, I just drive them :thumb: :D

dave
16-01-05, 09:15 PM
But if you don't have a big block, you don't get 50/50 distribution. ;) ;)

Stop it Robert.
I have been playing nice, like my mum told me to. :D
It would seem that the GD doesn't have 50/50 weight distribution either judging by Nick's weights..
Next time I'm at the SVA I'll try to remember what the weights are for front and rear.

I think we need a STIG! otherwise we will keep going around in circles (Please, no puns on "circles")
I'm getting a head ache :( :(

robert
16-01-05, 09:29 PM
Stop it Robert.
I have been playing nice, like my mum told me to. :D
It would seem that the GD doesn't have 50/50 weight distribution either judging by Nick's weights..
Next time I'm at the SVA I'll try to remember what the weights are for front and rear.

I think we need a STIG! otherwise we will keep going around in circles (Please, no puns on "circles")
I'm getting a head ache :( :(
No, my GD is 52/48 front bias, and then when I get into it, it goes horribly wrong. :( :( :D

We can get one of the instructors at Elvington to drive both cars and see what they think, if we can get one of those Celine things down. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

robert
16-01-05, 09:44 PM
Stop it Robert.
Right, enough of the fatuous comments, time to take the gloves off!!!!!

My GD has a million squillion horsepower, and can drive me round the bend quicker than an F1 car, it has a coffee percolator, massager, and a thing that goes ping. :D :D :D :D :p :angel:

Beat that sunshine. :thumb:

dave
17-01-05, 06:38 AM
:D :D :D

BTW What's a Celine thing??? Is it one of thise spiral jobbies that you drive around at a constant speed until the car lets go?


Hey Rob. Not bad going for a subject in Snake Watch and Industry News.
Over 3000 views and over 160 posts.

robert
17-01-05, 07:31 AM
:D :D :D

BTW What's a Celine thing???
errrmmm, de dion..... :D :D :D

mikey
17-01-05, 07:33 AM
Personally I went for one of the old fashioned smallblocks. If I were going for modern engineering I would certainly steer clear of the over rated LS6 etc etc and probably go for one of the Honda or other JTC thoroughbred engines. They beat the pants per cc off most others. Either that or one of the muscle BMW engines.

Track days. Huh if you were looking to be competitive, lets face it GD or Dax De Dion are simply no match for a reasonably handling car. We get them for the looks and the pure feeling of driving a beast like that.

stir stir

Mike.

Steve
17-01-05, 10:07 AM
Re GD weights

my GD Euro, on the road, after SVA etc, fitted with Ls1 , T56, with full tank, no bumpers, weighed 945 kilos on a weighbridge

The T56 is 15 kilo or so heavier than a 5 speed,

The LS7 will weigh approx 5-10 kilos less than an LS1. there are titanium rods etc that account for this, but the weight of an LS1 is already low, so the additional weight savings are relatively minor

Track or road, low weight makes acceleration easier, and removes cornering forces, assisting there too.

I don't get why so many people seem to see that the GD is a "track car" whereas other cars like the Dax are more for the road, and therefore better for that?

A car that handles well will handle well under any situation, not just 'cos its"on the track"

Im looking forward to Elvington, not because I want to see what manufacturers car runs best, but because I want to have the oppportunity to chuck the car around with no plod, barriers, armco, speedbumps etc getting in the way....

robert
17-01-05, 10:54 AM
I don't get why so many people seem to see that the GD is a "track car" whereas other cars like the Dax are more for the road, and therefore better for that?

A car that handles well will handle well under any situation, not just 'cos its"on the track"

Im looking forward to Elvington, not because I want to see what manufacturers car runs best, but because I want to have the oppportunity to chuck the car around with no plod, barriers, armco, speedbumps etc getting in the way....
Steve

Thanks for the voice of reason. The whole purpose of Elvington is to have fun and understand what happens to a car when it gets out of shape in a controlled environment where there are no lamposts, walls etc to hit.

If (god forbid) that a Cob gets out of shape on the road, then the repercussions can be dramatic, however if you have an understanding of how both the driver and the car react when on the edge, then you have a greater chance of missing something very very solid. :thumb: :thumb:

CW
17-01-05, 08:09 PM
Don't know whats so overrated about an ls6 !!! far more effiecient than an equivalent iron block, same beasty performance just lighter, more efficient ,more bang per cubic inch. yes bmw make good engines and for bhp per litre certainly humble the american stuff but they still don't give you the grunt of a good yank V8 and produce in excess of 400bhp in stockblock form.
I also don't see that many production cars that can shine a light to either a GD or dax de dion on an event such as elvington because those that have the agility have no where near the power for the serious straight stuff & those that have the power weigh so much they will never get round the corners with much grace. yes a good spec 911 would be quick and some top flight Italian exotica but your talking about spending a shed load more money than a top spec cobra.
I don't understand the miscomprehension that track days are dangerous race events where your car will get trashed. I would recommend doing an airfield day such as elvington to anybody whether they have a 2litre pinto in a pilgrim or a 7litre big block in a dax, these days are the ideal opppertunity to learn about your cars capabilities and if any its limitations, also your own personal skills and limitations. Elvington is so wide that you can spin your car three times and still be on the grey stuff. surely it is better to know where the safe limit is in the confines of a regulated trackday than to risk injuring some one on the public roads through not knowing what your car or yourself are capable of. I also think it is a shame that more manufactures don't attend the event in a professional capacity as it is an excellent oppertunity to show your wares in a public arena and to not potentially lose a sale through non appearance

mikey
18-01-05, 07:54 AM
Cant disagree

The post was getting too tame - tried to inspire some passion without much success.

However I do have a thing about the older design yank engines. I seriously considered an LS6 but I wanted to use my skills to extract the power. Unfortunately I am of the older breed that prefers to blueprint etc rather than use a laptop - probably reflects my inability at electronoics, but when it comes to engine building I have always extracted the most from the engine.

Elvington was great with a good bunch of enthusiasts. Would totally recommend it. It was particularly nice seeing the COBS thrash the Westfield on the drag strip. It was also good to see ROB's car in action for some time anyway.

Steve
18-01-05, 09:47 AM
Mikey

you can still blueprint the LS6......no wait, I think GM do that already. All the aftermarket modding, strokers, cams, pistons, aftermarket heads etc are all available now, and making great power, and because of the ECU it is all very refined,

THe LS6 is nothing more than an updated SBC, with Fuel injection. as easy to work on as a SBC, but makes 28MPG!!!

Ive had a 383, with heads, cam etc running 440 ftlb, and the ls1, making a mere 360 ft lb, and though i miss the grunt a little (but will do something about that over winter), the LS is far more usable, and because of its flexibility i think its about as quick on the roads.

Its just as smooth and user friendly to drive as my 528 engine, just lots quicker

white.whale
18-01-05, 10:57 AM
I'm building a 427, chassis is at Andy's and the LSI/T56 from a late model Transam is on its way from California as are the wheels. Suspension is all built and ready to go so the next couple of months will be quite hectic. As I have not yet ordered the body I could go with the new Mk4 shape -- just wondering about the wheels tho' with the arches a 17x8 might
look too small. Any ideas anyone.

osgood
18-01-05, 06:45 PM
Cant disagree

The post was getting too tame - tried to inspire some passion without much success.

However I do have a thing about the older design yank engines. I seriously considered an LS6 but I wanted to use my skills to extract the power. Unfortunately I am of the older breed that prefers to blueprint etc rather than use a laptop - probably reflects my inability at electronoics, but when it comes to engine building I have always extracted the most from the engine.

Elvington was great with a good bunch of enthusiasts. Would totally recommend it. It was particularly nice seeing the COBS thrash the Westfield on the drag strip. It was also good to see ROB's car in action for some time anyway.
Eric

Keep it clean please.

Rob

Steve
19-01-05, 09:26 AM
First off I'd order a body PDQ, and decide which one nearer the time - and 8 inch wheels depending on their offsets, will be lost in the arches of either the MIII or IV, without a lot of spacing.

I think GD run a 10 inch rear rim on the MKIII, with a 255 max tyre width, the MKIV will take a 285/40/17 tyre easily, perhaps more

shadow
19-01-05, 09:35 AM
Is that something you can do? place an order and then decide later which 1? and whats a PDQ? Does anyone know what the lead time is for both bodies?

Steve
19-01-05, 01:28 PM
I know i ordered a Jag chassis, and changed to a euro about 5 mins before they started to make it..though I doubt Andy would appreciate that happening too often.

I know the lead on the MKIII body was 8 months or so, and there are quite a few orders on the MKIV, you'd have to speak to Andy about lead times on that

And PDQ = Pretty damn quick!

shadow
19-01-05, 01:35 PM
ok, gotcha :thumb:. I ought to take a trip up there to see it first hand... and ask him some questions:-}

robert
19-01-05, 01:59 PM
Is that something you can do? place an order and then decide later which 1? and whats a PDQ? Does anyone know what the lead time is for both bodies?
As soon as you put an order in, your name is placed on the order schedule. Andy or Meena will contact you before they start to clarify any aspects that you haven't already decided on. :thumb:

crendonman
19-01-05, 03:23 PM
Steve

Thanks for the voice of reason. The whole purpose of Elvington is to have fun and understand what happens to a car when it gets out of shape in a controlled environment where there are no lamposts, walls etc to hit.

If (god forbid) that a Cob gets out of shape on the road, then the repercussions can be dramatic, however if you have an understanding of how both the driver and the car react when on the edge, then you have a greater chance of missing something very very solid. :thumb: :thumb:
Rob, Are you going to be supervising the "Parking in a very tight spot - Master Class" up at Elvington in May?? :D :D :rolleyes: If so how much is an entry? ;)

robert
19-01-05, 03:43 PM
Rob, Are you going to be supervising the "Parking in a very tight spot - Master Class" up at Elvington in May?? :D :D :rolleyes: If so how much is an entry? ;)
I already won that one. :D :D

white.whale
20-01-05, 12:53 PM
I just had an email from Andy about the Mk4 body. The moulds will be ready in the April time frame so that with the nine orders he already has the next slot available is looking like September.

williamsdad
21-01-05, 03:36 PM
New GD MK1V body will also take a 18" rim x 45 tyre 255 on front 285 on back this will fill the wheel arch up nicely. this is the choice I am going for with my GD.

What is wrong with wanting a car that will handle extremly well on the track and does the same on the road? makes perfect sense to me to know the cars ability.

GD has also proven its race ability on the track by winning tournaments in two years.
any other cobra replicas compete with sucsess?

Also regarding tuning of a standard LS6 engine, for the cost of £1900.00 + Vat you can get 477hp 465lb of torque torque at 1500rpm 330lb if any one is interested in modifying one.

hope this helps

white.whale
21-01-05, 03:49 PM
How do you get that horsepower increase -- with a lingenfelter chip or some kind of forced induction. I am installing a stock LSI for starters, I found a company in Indiana called Speartech which will make up a loom and reprogram the stock PCM which came with my
engine pretty cheaply. Thought I'd give that a try first and chase the extra horses later.
18" wheels, which is +3 on a Jag axle, ought to change your gear ratios and final drive no...??

Adrian472
21-01-05, 04:46 PM
White whale

What do you mean by 18" wheels are +3 on a jag rear?
Adrian

dave
21-01-05, 05:04 PM
[quote:2bbb88bdb7="williamsdad"]
GD has also proven its race ability on the track by winning tournaments in two years.
any other cobra replicas compete with sucsess?


Speak to Cheng Lim at Thunder Road Cars, he's won it a few times too.

There are plenty of differences to the cars that run in the races series than the ones that go on to the road. Those huge roll cages not only protect the driver they also stiffen up the chassis no end.
Road cars are a compromise. I'm not knocking the GD here, it's good...Very good, but please don't get carried away with an evangelical chant...........................We've heard it all before.

Anyway, enough of this. get the thing bought and start building. From what I hear you won't be dissapointed in the finished item, The GD T70 is a brilliant piece of kit (and will run rings around the more popular Ultima), I know that much as I'm building one for someone. And the GD427 has been around a lot longer:thumb: :thumb:

williamsdad
21-01-05, 08:36 PM
Thanks for the info guys, Re horsepower increase in lS6 engine this is done on the LS2 type engine which is the latest version producing 405 hp as standard.
By removing the heads, gas flowing the inlet manifold & installing a different cam which makes the engine breath better & altering the mapping system of the engine management then as per the motors produce this gain all recorded on a rolling road . for more info contact Andrew burrows at GD who will confirm this.

RE 18" wheels this is on the euro chasis using non jag bits & will be on the new MK1V body.

williamsdad
21-01-05, 08:46 PM
Engie gains RE LS6 stage 1 477hp 465lb torque 330lb of torque at 1500rpm.

Standard engine 405hp 400lb of torque.

I know that most of you have all read & answerd simular questions as mine Re best handling car ect, Best performance, Best engines, and all that.

I appreciate all your comments and understand that realy it is down to personal choice of which car you go. it just helps in reasurance that the choice you make is the best possible one before parting with hard earnt cash, And after all I want a motor I will keep for a long time & give me loads of fun.

So it will be the New shape MK1V GD as already orderd.

Cheers Steve.

robert
21-01-05, 09:37 PM
[quote:615828cb83="williamsdad"]
GD has also proven its race ability on the track by winning tournaments in two years.
any other cobra replicas compete with sucsess?


Speak to Cheng Lim at Thunder Road Cars, he's won it a few times too.

There are plenty of differences to the cars that run in the races series than the ones that go on to the road. Those huge roll cages not only protect the driver they also stiffen up the chassis no end.
Road cars are a compromise. I'm not knocking the GD here, it's good...Very good, but please don't get carried away with an evangelical chant...........................We've heard it all before.
Dave me old china!!!

The first GD demonstrator was driven to the track with a tool box in the front seat and went on to win. A road going standard demonstrator with nothing special.

This is the same car that Heather campaigned and is in the Cobra book, all they did was solidly mount the body to the chassis when Heather started racing it, nothing more.

The roll cage was the standard GD rollover hoops, with an extension going forward, and was not a full roll cage that would increase the rigidity of the car.

The later carbon fibre racer was a full roll cage.

Hope this helps to clarify. :D :D :thumb:

PS, I got two mags and calendars, did I get your? :p :p

dave
21-01-05, 10:12 PM
Dave me old china!!!


PS, I got two mags and calendars, did I get your? :p :p....................


.........................probably, you tw4t :D :D
The editor has been informed of my change of address etc but.......... :-( :-(

I knew there was something about the first racer that was almost "production road" but I wasn't sure what.

Grease Monkey
23-01-05, 07:53 AM
Bloody Hell.

You go on holiday for a few weeks and something like this happens. Why wasn't I informed ?! I've missed all the fun now.

Perhaps i could glue some wheel arch spats onto my '289' body, bit of filler and elbow grease and could have the first '427' GD on the road....

Nah

Call me a barbarian but i can't see any big differance between the two shapes.

MacGD016
23-01-05, 08:45 AM
Bloody Hell.

You go on holiday for a few weeks and something like this happens. Why wasn't I informed ?! I've missed all the fun now.

Perhaps i could glue some wheel arch spats onto my '289' body, bit of filler and elbow grease and could have the first '427' GD on the road....

Nah

Call me a barbarian but i can't see any big differance between the two shapes.
Oh Hell now you've done it, we nearly had got them settled down and now you will have gone and got them off again. Be it on your own head Adrian, this must already be the longest thread we have had and now it will probably go on for another 5 pages:-( :-( :-( :thumb: .

Hope you had a good time

Mac

gd02 cob
23-01-05, 09:13 AM
Good Man Adrian, I too can't see what all the fuss is about. As I said in a previous post, I have difficulty in seeing the differences and I saw the first body at the factory way back in August.
Well at least I suppose it will add some justification for those who want to plaster 427 badges all over their cars!!!!

Nick

robert
23-01-05, 09:36 AM
Good Man Adrian, I too can't see what all the fuss is about. As I said in a previous post, I have difficulty in seeing the differences and I saw the first body at the factory way back in August.
Well at least I suppose it will add some justification for those who want to plaster 427 badges all over their cars!!!!

Nick
Well at least I suppose it will add some justification for those who want to plaster 427 badges all over their plastic cars!!!! :D :D

PS, I am perfectly happy with my plastic car. :thumb: :thumb: :p

gd02 cob
23-01-05, 09:46 AM
Its better than aluminum !!!!

Nick

russj
25-01-05, 09:06 PM
Robert,

I have a GD Euro coming soon, just waiting on LS6 engine being delivered.

I am interested in the MK4 body but I don't know if I understand the difference between the 3 and 4.


My limited understanding is that the Mk3 is "sleeker" than the MK4.
Can you explain it any better than that?

Also what shape are the Dax and Ak's?

Andy has confirmed that the Mk4 will be about £500 more but this still has to be confirmed and eventually they will do an option of side pipes.

I am going to modify mine to take side pipes.

Thanks

Russ

williamsdad
26-01-05, 03:01 PM
Russ , if it helps the mk3 GD is a sleeker less bullging type replica, the MK1V is more like the old 427cobra & yes complete with side pipes.

Regarding the side pipes on a LS6 engine you minght loose some power because you will not be running a balanced exaust system as on the underslung GD with a LS6 engine.
But ask Andrew Burrows regarding this.
Cant comment on the Dax or AK as I dont know.

I also have ordered the Euro with new body style & the £500.00 premium is to cover additional materials used & to go towards the mold costs. so I am told.

hope this helps.

dave
26-01-05, 05:51 PM
Russ , if it helps the mk3 GD is a sleeker less bullging type replica, the MK1V is more like the old 427cobra & yes complete with side pipes.

Regarding the side pipes on a LS6 engine you minght loose some power because you will not be running a balanced exaust system as on the underslung GD with a LS6 engine.
But ask Andrew Burrows regarding this.
Cant comment on the Dax or AK as I dont know.

I also have ordered the Euro with new body style & the £500.00 premium is to cover additional materials used & to go towards the mold costs. so I am told.

hope this helps.





....Sounds like a man who has been on the GD philosophy tour !!!!!

I think.... But I will probably be vigorously corrected (As usual). that without a balance pipe you may lose some low end torque, but if you have a 5.7 litre or greater engine this will be minimal, so the ballance pipe is not the be all and end all of performance. How many top fuel dragsters and F1 cars have you seen with ballance pipes, and they are quite keen on performance. :rolleyes: :D :D :D

russj
26-01-05, 06:20 PM
Dave,


Thanks with this and other info I have received I have bitten the bullet and changed to the Mk4. I will modify the tub to take side exhausts, probably ones from Dax!


Can somebody explain what the balance box actually does?

Like you I have never seen one on GT40's or Ultimas either.

Iam told by my LS6 engine builder that I can expect about 470hp and 450ftlbs of torque so a few off this won't do too much harm.

I would however still like to understand what it actually does.

Russ

robert
26-01-05, 06:40 PM
I think.... But I will probably be vigorously corrected (As usual). that without a balance pipe you may lose some low end torque, but if you have a 5.7 litre or greater engine this will be minimal, so the ballance pipe is not the be all and end all of performance. How many top fuel dragsters and F1 cars have you seen with ballance pipes, and they are quite keen on performance. :rolleyes: :D :D :D
Yep, low end torque and a bit of fuel economy will be lost, and as Dave quite rightly points out, its not the be all and end all.

Was that too vigourous, or shall I be more gentle? :D :D :thumb:

mylesdw
26-01-05, 06:56 PM
The balance pipe is really there to make the car sound better, doubling the number of pulses from each side makes the sound much less raucous. As far as performance goes, the balance pipe simply lowers back pressure slightly, so for systems that are already free flowing (like F1 cars and dragsters) it is unnecessary.

russj
26-01-05, 08:28 PM
The Dax side pipes come with an option to increase the internal baffle diameter, post SVA pressumably, and allow the engine to flow better.
Apparently this is a quick job that can be done to allow the engine to flow better.
On a 5" system then the losses should pressumably be minimal.

As we all know it will however increase the noise.

I would need to check but I think it is about £100 for the replacement innards.

williamsdad
27-01-05, 02:50 PM
Regarding side pipes on a LS6 engine, as far as I am aware no one has yet put sidepipes on this type of engine before, Please correct me if any one has.
So before chopping holes in the side of the car it would be wise to seek proper advise, we are not talking about a simple chevy lump here, this engine is run by a computer & settings may have to be altered?? I would have guessed. So more home work is required. I certainly would find out before hand.

And remember it is not a drag engine, or formula 1 engine although with twin turbos fitted it is capable of producing 750HP.

hope this will help

williamsdad
28-01-05, 02:08 PM
Russ,
Have you opted for the LS1 type engine of 5.7ltr or the LS2 engine of the latter 6ltr cappacity. Interested in your choice.

As I have also ordered the new body type but I want to fit the new LS3 type engine which is ordered when it comes available to the end of this year. do you have any thoughts on this matter.

osgood
28-01-05, 04:54 PM
The balance pipe is really there to make the car sound better, doubling the number of pulses from each side makes the sound much less raucous. As far as performance goes, the balance pipe simply lowers back pressure slightly, so for systems that are already free flowing (like F1 cars and dragsters) it is unnecessary.Myles the balance pipe is not simply there to make it sound more adventagous, it gives increases in BHP too the tune of 7 bhp and increase in torque, it has to be put in a system at the right place to be effective, H or X system and one other which escapes me for the moment. It also has an effect on Sound (DB) the X system being the lower by all accounts:) Osgood:thumb:

Robin427
16-02-05, 07:10 AM
Blimey, you leave the room for 5 minutes and this is what happens?

I was only made aware of the LS7 today... after coming to terms with the LS2... what the hell is the LS3?

If anyone is interested I can offer a customised GD "lightweight" body for a reasonable amount....

... look, I meant to drill all those extra holes... honest

Grease Monkey
16-02-05, 08:19 AM
Hey Robin,

Haven't you finished yours yet ? Come on man pull your thumb out!

Purple AK
16-02-05, 08:26 AM
Hey Robin,

Haven't you finished yours yet ? Come on man pull your thumb out!Adrian.
I spoke to one of Robin's mate yesterday. And apparently he's in Canada working for another 4 months. So you look favorite to win the race ;)

williamsdad
16-02-05, 09:36 AM
Robin, Check out some of the links in this discussion or do a search for LS3 it is going to be fitted in the new covette 2006 model.

produces 500hp, revs to 7000rpm 7ltr capacity, & same size as the LS2 It will be boast a dry sump, a great benifit if you want to give it some stick round corners.

The LS3 in my opinion will be the ultimate engine being 427 capacity a superb torque line & rev range all aluminium, & brand new.

How light is the GD with a few extra holes?

Robin427
16-02-05, 06:39 PM
With the amount of GRP I've removed... I think it will weigh about 700kg...

... I don't think the extra holes are really going to make any difference... just make sure you measure before wielding your drill...

And Chris... I will be back at the beginning of May and have two weeks in which to work solidly on the project... so you've only got 2 1/2 months... mine is not far off being driveable (if I can reach the banjo bolt for the clutch that is leaking...)

Steve
24-03-05, 03:02 PM
Robin

I remember getting stuck on that banjo bolt too, not enough room for spanners. Think the LS engine is a bit further back than the 350.

Ended up bending the end of a cheap spanner through 90 degrees to get at it. (if you can bend a spanner it wasn't a good one in the first place)


PS, chopped all those excess wires from my ECU last week, about 30 in all.....

plugged the ECU and dash connectors back in......

turned the key......

and it fired a jet of oil straight at me from the oil pressure pipe fitting I had fastidiously taped up out of the way, in case it dripped a spot of oil whilst I was working on the ECU.


Oh, and the car ran fine


Steve

Trevor
24-03-05, 05:34 PM
Steve
I had pressure gauge pipeline problems from the first time I fired up and that convinced me to go all electrical. The sender is difficult to loose neatly though.
Trevor

Robin427
24-03-05, 06:52 PM
Steve - it is quite easy to remove the wires from the PCM without having to chop them off... glad the car runs fine now...

My wiring is completely unclipped behind the dash - it's all over the place (real Heath Robinson job) but now I know where to put the relay block, I should be able to neaten it up a bit...

Robin427
24-03-05, 06:53 PM
Forgot to say, to solve the banjo problem, I've bought the following:

1 * flexible ratcheting spanner
1 * crow foot spanner
2 * cheap bendable spanners

If those can't do the damn thing up then the body is coming off!!

shadow
24-03-05, 10:25 PM
Rob, Any more updates or pics on the new boddy? Was planing on going to Stonleigh this weekend, but its a no go. New house needs sortin out 1st. But if there is any more pics or info, pleas tell us. We're hungry for it :p.

shadow
25-03-05, 11:16 PM
LOL, What am I on about, Stonleigh this weekend....:confused:.. Losing it now peeps. I need to see it..lol
Plan to be moved in by then so I will pop down.