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jon1d
21-03-08, 06:37 PM
Hello

Any one brave the wethear in there cob to the Dax Open Day . Link below shows a dyno run on there demonstrator CHEVY 502 cub inch fuel injection.

"American big-block V8. With 502 cubic inches (8.2 litres) of Chevy V8 producing 502 bhp and a massive 567lbf.ft of torque"

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W6A64hsCaY

Cheers John

runt
21-03-08, 07:27 PM
Hi John, yep it looked/sounded in rude health, as has been noted before, this car remains in immaculate condition for a busy demonstrator, nice combination of earache and exhaust fumes in that shop; great stuff!
Later, did you catch that 'moment' when a handsome bright yellow Rush skidded sideways reversing up the ramps and nearly fell off?
Didn't see the 'Heli-Rush'.. Gary was busy in and out of the Tojeiro, so I didn't pester him.
As ever, nice event and thanks to all DJ's staff for having the time to chat/listen and the generous spread of nosh/coffee.

Paul/runt.:)

KICKSY
21-03-08, 08:34 PM
Hello

Any one brave the wethear in there cob to the Dax Open Day . Link below shows a dyno run on there demonstrator CHEVY 502 cub inch fuel injection.

"American big-block V8. With 502 cubic inches (8.2 litres) of Chevy V8 producing 502 bhp and a massive 567lbf.ft of torque"

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W6A64hsCaY

Cheers John502 bhp, more like 440 odd.

gareth08
21-03-08, 09:49 PM
502 bhp, more like 440 odd.

:D:D:D

Well said if that car has 502bhp (round brands last year) then they have a serious problem as I know of a LOT of other Cobs that would blow it into the weeds that have no-where near that alledged HP:(:mrgreen:

craggle
21-03-08, 10:27 PM
I think the engine is a 502 Cubic inch GM crate engine. They state 502 HP but that is American horses and most likely obtained in ideal circumstances a few miliseconds before the engine blew itself to bits on the dyno.;)

Dax are also running catalytic converters on it so at most I would guess 450 British horses at the flywheel.

Craig.

gareth08
21-03-08, 10:40 PM
I think the engine is a 502 Cubic inch GM crate engine. They state 502 HP but that is American horses and most likely obtained in ideal circumstances a few miliseconds before the engine blew itself to bits on the dyno.;)

Dax are also running catalytic converters on it so at most I would guess 450 British horses at the flywheel.

Craig.

I would take a guess that they have there 2 and 4's mixed up :rolleyes:

runt
22-03-08, 12:04 PM
:D:D:D

Well said if that car has 502bhp (round brands last year) then they have a serious problem as I know of a LOT of other Cobs that would blow it into the weeds that have no-where near that alledged HP:(:mrgreen:

Hi Gareth,that's interesting; I was wondering recently which are the quickest replicas in the UK;any chance you can enlighten us as to which ones would blow away from Dax's Demo? I know it has cats etc but with all that torque it does throw you down the road, I guess you must have ridden in it; and a lot more Cobs than me, so.. go on, who's the fastest of em all?

Paul.:)

gareth08
22-03-08, 01:08 PM
Hi Gareth,that's interesting; I was wondering recently which are the quickest replicas in the UK;any chance you can enlighten us as to which ones would blow away from Dax's Demo? I know it has cats etc but with all that torque it does throw you down the road, I guess you must have ridden in it; and a lot more Cobs than me, so.. go on, who's the fastest of em all?

Paul.:)

Hi Paul,


Yes I have been in the Dax demonstrator and whislt it may have a lot of torque you get to a point where torque is useless and HP etc comes into play.

As for who has the fastest Cob I don't know but I can assure you that Noel's Sumo is no slouch nor is Clarksons SRV8 or Twiggys UA (when he's not crashing it) to name a few. There are quite a few others that IMHO ( Tinka , Tony M , Miket , Big Thirsty , Chimerea , Steve etc) feel much quicker than the Dax. They may not have the 'alledged Hp' but they certainly put the power down better than the Dax.I can't/won't include myself as I have 5hit tyres:(:mrgreen:

Just my opinion of course.;)

fast4me
22-03-08, 01:08 PM
I think you find it was 438 bhp as it was on the sceen not the 502 bhp

jon1d
22-03-08, 01:32 PM
Hi,

A Dyno output to the fly wheel and no ancillaries will give you a higher output but what is put out to the road is a different story . Auto boxes loosing out the most .
Top gear did a dyno on some old 70's super cars and the output powers were interesting to say the least with all loosing power by the bucks!!
The shoot out session being booked should be interesting .

Cheers

runt
22-03-08, 04:17 PM
Thanks Gareth, really surprised to hear this as I thought of DJ's demo as 'King Cobra', I guess any 427 FE powered car with a genuine 500 @ the flywheel would be quick, but amazed that some of these others are in the frame. Don't suppose many have DRIVEN the demo as understandably DJ's would be a bit reluctant, I know Gary Sanders is a quick driver, frightened the life out of me.. surely the De Dion and Toyos ensure that power is easily put down in this car?
However.. 438 hp; as you say, many of our members' cars are thereabouts.

Paul.:)

craggle
22-03-08, 04:27 PM
If that's 438 at the wheels that is quite good and probably more than my estimated 450 at the fly wheel.

My small block has 396 at the flywheel. I guess my engine with alloy heads is also lighter than the 502 Chevy. Would be interesting to compare them.

Craig.

dave
22-03-08, 05:02 PM
:D:D:D

I know of a LOT of other Cobs that would blow it into the weeds that have no-where near that alledged HP:(:mrgreen:


So why haven't they?:rolleyes:
Peter Walker said that the car was not fuelling right at the top end (This would have shown on A/F scale if anyone had bothered to look at it).

There is no way in this world that any IRS Cobra car will put the power down better than the De Dion set up on the Dax demonstrator. The car has no camber change whatsoever under load which means that maxumum tread contact with the tarmac is maintained. And the engine is in as good a place as any other Cobra (Weight distribution wise).

The "Brands" bash was a demonstration session, not a race, from what I can gather. Gary can certainly make the car dance if he wants to.

At Elvington it was lapping around the same time as the GD demo, none of the other cars (With tax in the windscreen)were anywhere near to the pair of them.

Dutch Paul
22-03-08, 05:30 PM
...........At Elvington it was lapping around the same time as the GD demo, none of the other cars (With tax in the windscreen)were anywhere near to the pair of them.

The GD demo is 100+ hp (and torque) shy of the claimed Dax output so that`s Gareth`s statement proved then. :confused::confused:

gareth08
22-03-08, 05:39 PM
So why haven't they?:rolleyes:
Peter Walker said that the car was not fuelling right at the top end (This would have shown on A/F scale if anyone had bothered to look at it).

There is no way in this world that any IRS Cobra car will put the power down better than the De Dion set up on the Dax demonstrator. The car has no camber change whatsoever under load which means that maxumum tread contact with the tarmac is maintained. And the engine is in as good a place as any other Cobra (Weight distribution wise).

The "Brands" bash was a demonstration session, not a race, from what I can gather. Gary can certainly make the car dance if he wants to.

At Elvington it was lapping around the same time as the GD demo, none of the other cars (With tax in the windscreen)were anywhere near to the pair of them.

Dave,

Having been in the Dax at Brands it was IMO decidely pedestrian given the fact that it is alledged to have 500+hp:rolleyes:

It may or may not have a better set with the de-dion set up that I belive is a matter of opinion and preference.

With regard to Elvington I wasn't there so can't comment but a point to maybe observe is that any of the 'taxed cars' have nothing to prove whereas the demonstrators are trying to prove that they are the one to buy for whatever reason.;)

It's everyones own opinion and each to thier own;) but whilst it sounds great I'd be pretty pi55ed off with it compared to some other cobs;)

CycleSi
22-03-08, 06:08 PM
This one is going to get interesting

I suppose gearing comes into it too - diff ratios, etc.

Although my AK/Huddart 408ci is genuinely powerful (478 bhp/506 lbft) l do have to be careful balancing the revs & traction to put the power down efficiently and that is with a Quaife torque biasing diff.

I would imagine a Dax with the camber compensation/De Dion set up has to be the best way to hook up and get the power down?

l'm a little surprised by some of the comments questioning that.

Still comes down to those 3 special ways of measuring bhp/torque:

1. At the flywheel.
2. At the wheels.
3. At the bar.

dave
22-03-08, 06:15 PM
The GD demo is 100+ hp (and torque) shy of the claimed Dax output so that`s Gareth`s statement proved then. :confused::confused:



So, if the Dax only had 430 odd bhp and seeing that is weighs about 6 tonnes more than a GD (BBC vs LS) then I guess that proves Gareth wrong...And you too!
Smart arse.:p

dave
22-03-08, 06:27 PM
Dave,


It may or may not have a better set with the de-dion set up that I belive is a matter of opinion and preference.



Nothing to do with opinion or preference. It is to do with applied geometry, you of all people should know that with all the work you have done on your Sumo.
A fact, rather like saying it will do dark before morning. Whereas saying that it will rain is a different matter!


Also.
Has anyone here bought an Edelbrock Performer RPM engine which Edelbrock claim makes 420 BHP and found the engine to actually make anywhere near 400 BHP? ....Nearer 380 BHP is more like it.

I doubt that whoever at Chevrolet claimed that the Dax motor produces 502 BHP actually ran an alternator and water pump and an exhaust that you could drive down the road with when the test was done.

Dutch Paul
22-03-08, 07:02 PM
So, if the Dax only had 430 odd bhp and seeing that is weighs about 6 tonnes more than a GD (BBC vs LS) then I guess that proves Gareth wrong...And you too!
Smart arse.:p

Just how does that prove me or Gareth wrong?

500 hp Dax vs 350hp GD at Elvington (which has a long straight where the Dax should shine) lapped similar times. Therefore there are plenty of cobs out there with less power than is claimed for the Dax demo car which under similar circumstances will probably piss on the Dax. Even more so with a twisty track.
So that proves Gareth and I right and you wrong - smart arse. ;)

dave
22-03-08, 07:23 PM
Just how does that prove me or Gareth wrong?

500 hp Dax vs 350hp GD at Elvington (which has a long straight where the Dax should shine) lapped similar times. Therefore there are plenty of cobs out there with less power than is claimed for the Dax demo car which under similar circumstances will probably piss on the Dax. Even more so with a twisty track.
So that proves Gareth and I right and you wrong - smart arse. ;)


Erm 500 hp? I thought we were talking 430 odd?
Isn't the GD demo a 400 hp LS motor?
If this is right then there is only 30 odd hp between them, and the Dax has a heavier chassis (And boy aren't we reminded of this often enough!) And a BBC is considerebly heavier than an all alloy LS small block.

"Blow it in the weeds" is a term usually used when refering to out an out acceleration.
The only car to come anywhere close at Elvington was a privateer driven GD that just happened to completely miss out the chicane in an attempt to catch it.

Gareth said "A lot" of Cobras, implying that many different makes, which he compiled a list.
Something to bear in mind is that the Dax is a very compliant car, put a compliant car next to one that isn't and the one that isn't will feel quicker because it throws you about more.
EG. Years ago I drove the fastest car I have ever been in. It was a Morris Marina travelling at 40 mph!...........Doesn't sound much does it? try it with no brakes down side roads and see how fast it feels!!!!
Hence why GD's dont feel as quick as they are, because they put the power down very well and the chassis can handle it.

What got me was how some people can find a way of dissing something no matter which way around the cards are stacked.

Now if it was a 500 hp car and it felt slow then all well and good, but has it not just been proved that it is a 430 hp car and carrying around a big block. That would make a 400 hp small block car quicker and much more nimble.

gareth08
22-03-08, 07:24 PM
Just how does that prove me or Gareth wrong?

500 hp Dax vs 350hp GD at Elvington (which has a long straight where the Dax should shine) lapped similar times. Therefore there are plenty of cobs out there with less power than is claimed for the Dax demo car which under similar circumstances will probably piss on the Dax. Even more so with a twisty track.
So that proves Gareth and I right and you wrong - smart arse. ;)

Oh dear what have I started:o:D:D:D

All I was actually saying was that the Dax does not feel that quick compared to some other cobs even though it is supposed to have 500+hp.

with reference to the de-dion set up it may have it's advantages over other set ups but if it was that good then why don't all the top motorsport teams employ it in thier cars etc. Mind you don't think it would be that useful on a Dragster though:mrgreen:

It's all very well saying it has this and that but it weighs much more than a lot of others so the output kind of gets lost in the power to weight ratio;)

A challanger tank has lots of gee gee's but it's not that quick:mrgreen:

Dutch Paul
22-03-08, 07:39 PM
Erm 500 hp? I thought we were talking 430 odd?
Isn't the GD demo a 400 hp LS motor?
If this is right then there is only 30 odd hp between them, and the Dax has a heavier chassis (And boy aren't we reminded of this often enough!) And a BBC is considerebly heavier than an all alloy LS small block.

"Blow it in the weeds" is a term usually used when refering to out an out acceleration.
The only car to come anywhere close at Elvington was a privateer driven GD that just happened to completely miss out the chicane in an attempt to catch it.

Gareth said "A lot" of Cobras, implying that many different makes, which he compiled a list.
Something to bear in mind is that the Dax is a very compliant car, put a compliant car next to one that isn't and the one that isn't will feel quicker because it throws you about more.
EG. Years ago I drove the fastest car I have ever been in. It was a Morris Marina travelling at 40 mph!...........Doesn't sound much does it? try it with no brakes down side roads and see how fast it feels!!!!
Hence why GD's dont feel as quick as they are, because they put the power down very well and the chassis can handle it.

What got me was how some people can find a way of dissing something no matter which way around the cards are stacked.

Now if it was a 500 hp car and it felt slow then all well and good, but has it not just been proved that it is a 430 hp car and carrying around a big block. That would make a 400 hp small block car quicker and much more nimble.

Dave

Gareth stated "I know of a LOT of other Cobs that would blow it into the weeds that have no-where near that alledged HP"

You stated "At Elvington it was lapping around the same time as the GD demo, none of the other cars (With tax in the windscreen)were anywhere near to the pair of them."

The GD Demo (AFAIK) had around 350hp at Elvington - you say 400 hp?

Dax also state "staggering chest-beating 8.2-litre Tojeiro demonstrator producing 550bhp from its Chevy 502ci big block!"

From here.......

The Dax News All About Information On Kit Cars (http://www.daxcars.co.uk/previous/Dax_at_Brands_Hatch.htm)

So back to my original statement with corrected power figures...

550 hp Dax vs 400hp GD at Elvington (which has a long straight where the Dax should shine) lapped similar times. Therefore there are plenty of cobs out there with less power than is claimed for the Dax demo car which under similar circumstances will probably piss on the Dax. Even more so with a twisty track.
So that proves Gareth and I right and you wrong - smarty pants. ;)

By the way - weeds don`t only grow on straight roads.

dave
22-03-08, 07:47 PM
Hi Gareth.

Just been doing some sums on the power to weight issue.
I think the Dax demo weighs in at around 1180 Kgs(What it would weigh on the scales at SVA)(About 50 kg heavier than a 383 small block car)
And with 437 BHP it has around 370BHP per ton.

All I could get for the GD is take the 950kg rover powered weight and then add the extra for what I can find for the weight of an LS motor.
I'm probably a mile out but I get the GD at around 1005 kgs and with a 400 BHP engine it has around 395 BHP per ton.

If the LS GD weighed 1,075 kg then they would be level pegging on the power to weight ratio.

Does anyone have the weight of an LS powered GD? as I'm sure the Rover powered 950KG weight does not include roll bars etc.

gareth08
22-03-08, 07:55 PM
Hi Gareth.

Just been doing some sums on the power to weight issue.
I think the Dax demo weighs in at around 1180 Kgs(What it would weigh on the scales at SVA)(About 50 kg heavier than a 383 small block car)
And with 437 BHP it has around 370BHP per ton.

All I could get for the GD is take the 950kg rover powered weight and then add the extra for what I can find for the weight of an LS motor.
I'm probably a mile out but I get the GD at around 1005 kgs and with a 400 BHP engine it has around 395 BHP per ton.

If the LS GD weighed 1,075 kg then they would be level pegging on the power to weight ratio.

Does anyone have the weight of an LS powered GD? as I'm sure the Rover powered 950KG weight does not include roll bars etc.




Oh dear :(:(:(:(:(

What have I started:twisted:;)

Dave don't take it to heart mate it's only my opinion anyway:mrgreen:

dave
22-03-08, 08:09 PM
No offence Gareth. My last post was a more subdued one.;):D:D
It would be nice to know what things are tipping the scales at these days.;)

Purple AK
22-03-08, 08:26 PM
Hi Gareth.

Just been doing some sums on the power to weight issue.
I think the Dax demo weighs in at around 1180 Kgs(What it would weigh on the scales at SVA)(About 50 kg heavier than a 383 small block car)
And with 437 BHP it has around 370BHP per ton.

All I could get for the GD is take the 950kg rover powered weight and then add the extra for what I can find for the weight of an LS motor.
I'm probably a mile out but I get the GD at around 1005 kgs and with a 400 BHP engine it has around 395 BHP per ton.

If the LS GD weighed 1,075 kg then they would be level pegging on the power to weight ratio.

Does anyone have the weight of an LS powered GD? as I'm sure the Rover powered 950KG weight does not include roll bars etc.
Not sure where you're getting your engine weights from :D But I make the BBC 685lbs as opposed to 575lbs for the SBC. Thats 110lbs (242kg) heavier :rolleyes:
The LS2 is 412lbs against 318lbs for the Rover. 207kgs heavier ;)

dave
22-03-08, 08:31 PM
Hi chris.
1 kKG = 2.2 LB

You got it the other way around mr. (Senior moment?):D:rolleyes:

About 50Kg/110Lb heavier in both cases.

cren514
22-03-08, 08:31 PM
Hi all,I understand that the DAX on the dyno was missing on the top end on the day so perhaps it may have made a little more if this was sorted but 400+ bhp is quite a lot after all said and done and suspect that a lot of cobras out there would not come close to this,and would they need to ?
Having a big block myself I know that these can be quite a handfull at the best of times and the only time I can use the power in anger is on the strip and then have a job keeping it on the straight and narrow,this would also apply to small block especially the stroked versions.
So are all these high bhp/torque figures realy necassary unless you race or are they just for the bar.
By the way this only I think the third post of mine so be gentle.

dave
22-03-08, 08:35 PM
Hi all,I understand that the DAX on the dyno was missing on the top end on the day so perhaps it may have made a little more if this was sorted but 400+ bhp is quite a lot after all said and done and suspect that a lot of cobras out there would not come close to this,and would they need to ?
Having a big block myself I know that these can be quite a handfull at the best of times and the only time I can use the power in anger is on the strip and then have a job keeping it on the straight and narrow,this would also apply to small block especially the stroked versions.
So are all these high bhp/torque figures realy necassary unless you race or are they just for the bar.
By the way this only I think the third post of mine so be gentle.


11th post. so sit down and shut up.:twisted::twisted::twisted:





































Just kidding, join in, it's character building.:D;)

Clarkson
22-03-08, 08:43 PM
It sounds like it does have approx 500 FLYWHEEL HP and more! You get 20% loss through the transmission,do the mathes sounds correct to me.

If its got 430 at the wheels then it's quicker than mine as I have only 420hp at the Flywheel and approx 340 at the wheels!

Purple AK
22-03-08, 08:44 PM
Hi chris.
1 kKG = 2.2 LB

You got it the other way around mr. (Senior moment?):D:rolleyes:

About 50Kg/110Lb heavier in both cases.
Doh :( :D Been a VERY Bad week mate :( Frigging Van went pear shaped and I've been transfering/building everything into another one!! You would think a 300 van would last more than 6 years with modern technoligy wouldn't you :rolleyes:

cren514
22-03-08, 08:53 PM
11th time hey dont time fly when your having fun,still didnt answer the question thought Dave

dave
22-03-08, 08:56 PM
It sounds like it does have approx 500 FLYWHEEL HP and more! You get 20% loss through the transmission,do the mathes sounds correct to me.

If its got 430 at the wheels then it's quicker than mine as I have only 420hp at the Flywheel and approx 340 at the wheels!

The figures from the RR session at Dax were calculated FW horse power.
The car does not have the power it is supposed to.


Dutchy.
Forget all the figures you have read previously anywhere, the Dax demo was RR tested yesterday and it produced 430bhp at the flywheel. Therefore it cannot have 550, or 502, or even 500 bhp. It has less than 440 BHP full stop.
Which part of the Bold itallic line above that you do not understand?:rolleyes:

I believe that this is the first time the car has ever been on a rolling road.

dave
22-03-08, 09:01 PM
11th time hey dont time fly when your having fun,still didnt answer the question thought Dave

Oops.
Most of the cars I build have engines that make over 400BHP on an engine dyno. Usually 383 stroker Chevys.
I doubt they will make the same power in the car due to the dyno exhaust being far better at extracting the gasses and not having to worry about looking pretty and being quiet enough to prevent ear bleeding.:o

dave
22-03-08, 09:06 PM
Just for fun.
The next time I get an engine run up on the dyno I'll try to get it run with the dyno exhausts and then run it again with the Dax side pipes and see what the difference is.

And if you are all really good I moght even tell you the results.:twisted:

cren514
22-03-08, 09:19 PM
Dave that will be nice but I think you should do a third test one with all the bling off

Dutch Paul
22-03-08, 09:24 PM
Dutchy.
Forget all the figures you have read previously anywhere, the Dax demo was RR tested yesterday and it produced 430bhp at the flywheel. Therefore it cannot have 550, or 502, or even 500 bhp. It has less than 440 BHP full stop.
Which part of the Bold itallic line above that you do not understand?:rolleyes:

I believe that this is the first time the car has ever been on a rolling road.

Was the rolling road calibrated? :confused:

Only joking - this could go on forever - time for a pint. :mrgreen:

craggle
22-03-08, 09:34 PM
Just out of interest Dave, what's your best seller?

I was surprised that Dax decided to do a big block demonstrator as I guess the most popular build is a Chevy small block with the De-dion chassis.

When I brought my car the demonstrator was a 350 Chevy powered standard chassis car. I brought the exact same combination as I was very impressed with performance and road holding when on the test run. The De-Dion chassis was still under development but I was shown the chassis and concept of the idea.

If I was to build another I would definitely go with the De-Dion chassis but would probably be tempted by a big block Ford.

Craig.

runt
22-03-08, 09:39 PM
I think I started this Gareth..!
And, whatever that Chev was making in 2006 when Gary took me for a brief tour of Harlow outskirts, midrange torque is colossal and the push in the back was breathtaking, hitting very hard as low as 2000 revs, furthermore that De Dion chassis allowed him to throw it around like a Boxster, I was stunned that a monster front engine rwd sports car could dance like that, on a damp surface.;)

Craig, I asked one of the Dax boys about the shift in style from the previous blue demo with SBC; he explained that you've got to keep the public's imagination, and it IS a dramatic motor, variety is the spice of life!

Paul.

Clarkson
22-03-08, 09:47 PM
I think I started this Gareth..!
And, whatever that Chev was making in 2006 when Gary took me for a brief tour of Harlow outskirts, midrange torque is colossal and the push in the back was breathtaking, hitting very hard as low as 2000 revs, furthermore that De Dion chassis allowed him to throw it around like a Boxster, I was stunned that a monster front engine rwd sports car could dance like that, on a damp surface.;)

Paul.

Thats Block block torque for you and sticky tyres.;)

Clarkson
22-03-08, 09:49 PM
The figures from the RR session at Dax were calculated FW horse power.
The car does not have the power it is supposed to.


Dutchy.
Forget all the figures you have read previously anywhere, the Dax demo was RR tested yesterday and it produced 430bhp at the flywheel. Therefore it cannot have 550, or 502, or even 500 bhp. It has less than 440 BHP full stop.
Which part of the Bold itallic line above that you do not understand?:rolleyes:

I believe that this is the first time the car has ever been on a rolling road.

I'm confused! The power was taken from the wheels! So why was it flywheel power?? The flywheel power is only calculated from the RWHP!:confused::confused:

runt
22-03-08, 09:51 PM
Thats Block block torque for you and sticky tyres.;)

Yep definitely Dave, apparently those R888 Toyo on there now do wear quicker than T-1R, more a track day tyre, you have to add the De Dion into the equation tho'

dave
22-03-08, 09:51 PM
Just out of interest Dave, what's your best seller?

Craig.


Hi Craig.
90% are De Dions these days, and have been since 2004
70%+ are strokers (400-450 hp (ish :rolleyes: :D))

dave
22-03-08, 10:01 PM
I'm confused! The power was taken from the wheels! So why was it flywheel power?? The flywheel power is only calculated from the RWHP!:confused::confused:

Was that a question or a confession?????:D

I don't know but most people want to know how much power their engine has, not the car.
There was a guy on here who use to have his engine power down as 448 in his signature, I can't for the life of me think why though!:rolleyes:;):D.

Seriously though. I think if it was something to sort of shout about then the RWHP to weight ratio would be a better yard stick....Would be a bit long winded though:-
"724 RWHP per tonne" for example.

robert
22-03-08, 10:07 PM
Isn't the GD demo a 400 hp LS motor?


The old silver GD demo was actually a crash recovered LS1 that I had shipped in from the US, but never got round to using so Andy bought it off me.

It is a bog standard LS1 not much over 300hp.

TonyD
22-03-08, 10:25 PM
I think everyone is getting a bit confused about various units of measurement.

We have UK and Yank BHP, wheel and flywheel BHP, BHP adjusted for climatic conditions, atmospheric pressures, phase of the moon, astrological signs etc etc. Torque figures quoted using gearing multipliers, newton metres, Ibs per foot, and ability to pull the skin off rice pudding

We have people saying that Ford engines are more powerful , others claiming that Chevy engines are stronger , yet as a result of the aftermarket goodies and engineering work done the only original Ford and Chevy bits are the core plugs........

Surely its time to agree a comprehensive and easily measurable unit of engine efficiency and power.

I refer here to the RWBHPPPS.





This can be defined as Rear Wheel Brake Horse Power Per Pound Spent. :mrgreen:


At last, one thing I can beat everyone on!!! 1 per BHP beat that !!


Cheers,

Tony:D


PS Just back from Pikey skip raiding down Banbury way !!

dave
22-03-08, 10:31 PM
I refer here to the RWBHPPPS.

This can be defined as Rear Wheel Brake Horse Power Per Pound Spent. :mrgreen:
At last, one thing I can beat everyone on!!! 1 per BHP beat that !!
Cheers,
Tony:D
!!

Don't be too sure Tony.
Mr Hop Sing Lee will pop up in a minute telling you he sells the best bang pre buck never duplicated either side of the pond lock and load true turn key...Or words to that effect.:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

robert
22-03-08, 10:34 PM
Don't be too sure Tony.
Mr Hop Sing Lee will pop up in a minute telling you he sells the best bang pre buck never duplicated either side of the pond lock and load true turn key...Or words to that effect.:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

Hello mates from in the pond, I agree, no shoddy chinese fakes, only the pukka goods here. ;)

craggle
22-03-08, 10:36 PM
Complete car comes to 88.38 per horse power:(

Nearly as bad as what I worked out last year. I think with tax and fuel each mile I traveled cost about 0.88!
I only managed about 300 miles last year. 185 tax and about 80 worth of fuel works out to 88p a mile. Then theres insurance cost too!

Must try to use it more this year.

Craig.

dave
22-03-08, 10:40 PM
Hello mates from in the pond, I agree, no shoddy chinese fakes, only the pukka goods here. ;)

I agree, and that's my 2 cents.
Fee. I pint of English brew.

gareth08
22-03-08, 10:48 PM
I agree, and that's my 2 cents.
Fee. I pint of English brew.


You bunch of pi55 takers :D:D:D;)

robert
22-03-08, 10:50 PM
I agree, and that's my 2 cents.
Fee. I pint of English brew.

You forgot the pie. :D

craggle
22-03-08, 11:00 PM
Is our friend from across the pond who is fond of pies and pints still around?

What happened to the Cobra colour gallery pages Rob?

slogger
22-03-08, 11:03 PM
I feel so much better now! I must be in the 36p per horsey and have about 3 of em............;):D:D

arrr, but are they UK or US and are they pre 1972??

robert
22-03-08, 11:05 PM
Is our friend from across the pond who is fond of pies and pints still around?

Nope


What happened to the Cobra colour gallery pages Rob?

I am working on it, not had a great dela of time recently. :(

craggle
22-03-08, 11:07 PM
No rush Rob. Just wondered if it was still on the cards or had been shelved.

Craig.

dave
22-03-08, 11:08 PM
You bunch of pi55 takers :D:D:D;)


Hey, that's what you get from 30 years in the business.

Wilburn
22-03-08, 11:14 PM
My Dax has 450bhp (which im sure it DOES produce on a dyno under optimum conditions etc. without dax exhausts and without an alternator or water pump connected)

The actual power now it's in my car will be less, how much less I don't know or care.

However, I once drove 650 miles (in a day and a half) in a Pilgrim Cobra with a 5.0 litre Ford Windsor engine which only produced approx 250bhp (see pic below)

It felt a lot quicker than it actually was because of the complete lack of traction from the tyres (be down to crap tyres which were not 295 wide like my Toyo's and no de dion suspension).

When pulling away gently in 1st gear in the wet, the back end would just fish tail no matter what you did and on the move you had to watch what you did with the throttle!

However as Dave says:
"Something to bear in mind is that the Dax is a very compliant car, put a compliant car next to one that isn't and the one that isn't will feel quicker because it throws you about more.".

My Dax just grips like mad - even in the wet so this always makes me 'think' mmmm this is slow - I need more power :)

craggle
22-03-08, 11:19 PM
Mine didn't grip like mad the other day when I took it work on a cold frosty morning.

Back end took me by surprise and tried to get in front. Scared the hell out of me!:mrgreen:

Craig.

Clarkson
22-03-08, 11:53 PM
Was that a question or a confession?????:D

I don't know but most people want to know how much power their engine has, not the car.
There was a guy on here who use to have his engine power down as 448 in his signature, I can't for the life of me think why though!:rolleyes:;):D.

Seriously though. I think if it was something to sort of shout about then the RWHP to weight ratio would be a better yard stick....Would be a bit long winded though:-
"724 RWHP per tonne" for example.


You piss taken sod!:rolleyes:;)

How do you remember that,you need to get out more.;)

Clarkson
22-03-08, 11:55 PM
Mine didn't grip like mad the other day when I took it work on a cold frosty morning.

Back end took me by surprise and tried to get in front. Scared the hell out of me!:mrgreen:

Craig.

You need to stop polishing your car and get it dirty more!:rolleyes:;)

dave
23-03-08, 12:02 AM
How do you remember that,you need to get out more.;)


Cos I'm stalking you.:shock:

They were very good numbers for a 350 motor, especially seeing as they were dyno figures and not Edelbrock figures.

Clarkson
23-03-08, 12:05 AM
Cos I'm stalking you.:shock:

They were very good numbers for a 350 motor, especially seeing as they were dyno figures and not Edelbrock figures.


Thats why its on my signature dummy!;) On STD bore size too.:rolleyes:

dave
23-03-08, 12:10 AM
Thats why its on my signature dummy!;) On STD bore size too.:rolleyes:


Hey, less of the "Dummy", you sarky sod. My post was a compliment and a recognition of your acheivement.:(;)

BTW Was on your sig.

Clarkson
23-03-08, 12:17 AM
Hey, less of the "Dummy", you sarky sod. My post was a compliment and a recognition of your acheivement.:(;)

BTW Was on your sig.


Just for you Dave!;)

robert
23-03-08, 12:25 AM
Just for you Dave!;)

You got a problem with the water out. ;)

Clarkson
23-03-08, 12:28 AM
You got a problem with the water out. ;)

Yeh??:confused::confused:

robert
23-03-08, 12:47 AM
Yeh??:confused::confused:

19090 degrees f. :p

David Large
23-03-08, 06:28 AM
Mine didn't grip like mad the other day when I took it work on a cold frosty morning.

Back end took me by surprise and tried to get in front. Scared the hell out of me!:mrgreen:

Craig.

Hi Craig,

Thinking back to an earlier thread quoted below:-

"Craig,

I was just tickled (in a light hearted way) by the notion that "it runs quite well" when it has "cold start issues, Hot start issues, Fuel evaporation, Fuel surging on corners, Fuel surging under breaking, flat spots Etc, Etc."

So it is ok in a straight line at a constant speed (not too fast now) assuming you can start it in the first place.

Cheers

David"

You are obviously now using your car for things it was not designed for, you are only supposed to go in straight lines!

David

craggle
23-03-08, 08:21 AM
I have started going round corners now. It takes some getting used too but I find the big round thing in front of me seems to have some effect on direction!:mrgreen:

I was running out of straight roads round here to drive on anyway. Not sure it was designed for icy roads though.

May even try it in the wet one day but I really don't want to get it dirty!:mrgreen:

Thanks for the concern:rolleyes:

Craig.

Impulsebooks
23-03-08, 09:32 AM
So back to my original statement with corrected power figures...

550 hp Dax vs 400hp GD at Elvington (which has a long straight where the Dax should shine) lapped similar times. .


I'm coming into this... cough cough discussion very late, but it seems to me that if two cars on a race track have widely varying power outputs, yet both still make similar lap times the problem isn't power it is in the handling and/or aerodynamics.

I don't build cars or race cars for a living (working at Fords doesn't count, coz they don't let me play with the prototypes :) ) but seeing as its cobs we are talking about, the aerodynamics of both cars must be the same. It is therefore the handling that makes the GD feel faster even though its making the same lap times. Does that make sense?

It seems to me DAX's de dion is set up in such a way to make those lap times comfortably (you don't feel on the edge, so don't feel that fast) where in the GD it feels more "balls out" and on the edge... <shrug> that's what I am getting from the posts before me anyway.

robert
23-03-08, 09:46 AM
It seems to me DAX's de dion is set up in such a way to make those lap times comfortably (you don't feel on the edge, so don't feel that fast) where in the GD it feels more "balls out" and on the edge... <shrug> that's what I am getting from the posts before me anyway.

Try the other way round, its all about getting the power down onto the road, and when we are talking of 300hp plus cars, that weigh next to nothing, then the odds are evened out in terms of power/oversteer. ;)

Let the flame wars commence.

dave
23-03-08, 09:47 AM
It seems to me DAX's de dion is set up in such a way to make those lap times comfortably (you don't feel on the edge, so don't feel that fast) where in the GD it feels more "balls out" and on the edge... <shrug> that's what I am getting from the posts before me anyway.


Almost, but no cigar.:D
The GD would be the last car I would suggest would ever feel like a handfull on track.
I have never been in one that was travelling any faster than walking pace buy the popular consensus is that they are extremely compliant.;)

robert
23-03-08, 09:54 AM
The GD would be the last car I would suggest would ever feel like a handfull on track.

Depends who is driving, have you ever had a ride with the Green Goblin. :p:p

Impulsebooks
23-03-08, 10:09 AM
Almost, but no cigar.:D

Awwww, damn.



The GD would be the last car I would suggest would ever feel like a handfull on track.
I have never been in one that was travelling any faster than walking pace buy the popular consensus is that they are extremely compliant.;)


I have only ever driven the DAX, so I bow to your superior judgement :) Anyway, I blame all you lot for the posts I read before mine--my conclusions were compiled from them.... hehehe

jon1d
24-03-08, 04:56 PM
Hi,

This dicussion has two different points . Track times and BHP which is
Track times can be nearly the same but your BHP might well be lower . A good example on a short and twisty circuit a Caterham 7 can post equal times to a car with twice the BHP /power to weight and handling makes all the difference.

Cheers .

clive a brown
24-03-08, 07:18 PM
the biggest difference will be the driver!

jon1d
25-03-08, 02:29 PM
Clive,

Very good point all the extra weight could make all the difference and of course the skill factor!

Cheers

Neil O
25-03-08, 03:31 PM
Clive,

Very good point all the extra weight could make all the difference and of course the skill factor!

Cheers

In my case, I'd lose out on both points.:(:mrgreen:

wilf
25-03-08, 04:07 PM
Not necessarily, if a handicapping system were employed...........:twisted:

dave
25-03-08, 06:19 PM
I thought this thread was all about dyno power figures, how does the driver affect that?:confused::confused::rolleyes::D

Happy Jim
25-03-08, 09:50 PM
I thought this thread was all about dyno power figures, how does the driver affect that?:confused::confused::rolleyes::D

Sheesh :rolleyes: Have you never drunk Beer :mrgreen: