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sparky1606
15-01-10, 09:49 AM
Hi, Iv been speaking to a friend of mine recons he would be able to roll a set of the rear stone guards out of stainless steel 316, At the moment he has only a template for a mk3 pilgrim arch taken off my body, Was just wondering how many people might be interested in a set of these so hopefully the price could be kept down.

Paul B
15-01-10, 09:59 AM
Hi Sparky

I would be interested depending on price.

The ally ones keep needing repolishing and are getting a little pitted.

Cheers

Paul

bloke from stoke
15-01-10, 03:23 PM
Hi, might be interested, have you got a ball park price, I know it depends on how many order but has he given you an any Idea

Regards Lester

Robin427
15-01-10, 08:45 PM
If they'd fit a GD Mk.III, count me in

RCCob
15-01-10, 10:20 PM
Hi, Iv been speaking to a friend of mine recons he would be able to roll a set of the rear stone guards out of stainless steel 316, At the moment he has only a template for a mk3 pilgrim arch taken off my body, Was just wondering how many people might be interested in a set of these so hopefully the price could be kept down.

Count me in, if they fit an SRV8.:p:p:p

Russ

philbrad73
15-01-10, 11:49 PM
Hi

I have a mk3 sumo and would like a pair depending on the price ?

cheers phil.

iancobrafan
16-01-10, 12:07 PM
I would br interested in as set too but my car is an AK

Cheers
Ian

GARY
16-01-10, 03:16 PM
I may be interested for my SRV8, it has never had them and does seem to have a few pits in the paint work in that area, also on a different area, has anyone had any sidpipes made in a matt black finish, or even the white finish.
I would be interested to know anywhere where i could get a set fitted, or if there`s any pros or cons with this type of finish, sorry to go of the subject a bit.

smacaree
16-01-10, 06:42 PM
I'd take a pair of the arches, if the price were right.

Simon

Hagster
16-01-10, 08:03 PM
Me too depending on price, SRV8 here if they would fit.

Get a ball park price in sets of 10 for example.

sparky1606
17-01-10, 09:29 AM
Hi, I will speak to my mate tomorrow and will try and get a price off him, so will let you all know asap.
Thanks.

nealgs
17-01-10, 10:32 AM
could possibly be interested to - another SRV8 (seems to be a lot in this thread :cool: ) - depending on price

cheers
Gary

chris98m
18-01-10, 09:35 AM
Hi I would be intrested in a set to suit sumo mk 3.
CHRIS

Dixie
18-01-10, 11:27 AM
I'll be interested if I can get them to fit a Viper?

RCCob
18-01-10, 06:06 PM
could possibly be interested to - another SRV8 (seems to be a lot in this thread :cool: ) - depending on price

cheers
Gary

I didn't know there were so many SRV8's about :rolleyes::rolleyes: hello to all.

Murray
18-01-10, 08:07 PM
If they fit a Viper, (hello Dixie) I'd be interested, depending on the price of course.

LAURIESPARKY
19-01-10, 12:55 PM
Yes please count me in for a set for the mk3 Sumo
Regards Laurie

rico
21-01-10, 11:13 PM
Hi, Iv been speaking to a friend of mine recons he would be able to roll a set of the rear stone guards out of stainless steel 316, At the moment he has only a template for a mk3 pilgrim arch taken off my body, Was just wondering how many people might be interested in a set of these so hopefully the price could be kept down.

hi,id also be interested in a set for my sumo,what price has been set??could you let us know,taffy

steve_h
22-01-10, 12:14 PM
me too! mk 3 sumo

is he going to roll them by hand?

steve

malcolmbuck
24-01-10, 02:20 PM
And me please. Mk3 sumo.

Malc

Gonch
25-01-10, 12:51 PM
Dax here, and id be interested.

spoonies
24-02-10, 07:14 PM
If they'd fit a GD Mk.III, count me in


Me too please, polished stainless also.

Thanks

Colin

cobracol
24-02-10, 07:34 PM
And maybe me for AK, someones going to be buisy, will find out what Surface will charge while mine is idle

rico
25-02-10, 12:49 PM
Hi, Iv been speaking to a friend of mine recons he would be able to roll a set of the rear stone guards out of stainless steel 316, At the moment he has only a template for a mk3 pilgrim arch taken off my body, Was just wondering how many people might be interested in a set of these so hopefully the price could be kept down.

hi,ill take a set,have you got a price yet,you seem to have a lot of buyers,all wanting to know the same,"PRICE PLEASE"???? REGARDS,TAFFY

chiffer
25-02-10, 03:08 PM
Yes, interested. GD Mk111

oglyoodoo
25-02-10, 05:24 PM
And me GD Mk111

Denis

kdavies3
25-02-10, 05:32 PM
Not wishing to steal the thread in any way but if Sparkys contact falls through I also have a guy that could probably produce these too. :D
He would need a pattern for each different model or a car I guess.
I have a Dax pattern.

slimy999
26-02-10, 11:08 PM
I may be interested for my SRV8, it has never had them and does seem to have a few pits in the paint work in that area, also on a different area, has anyone had any sidpipes made in a matt black finish, or even the white finish.
I would be interested to know anywhere where i could get a set fitted, or if there`s any pros or cons with this type of finish, sorry to go of the subject a bit.

Gary mines got black side pipes, and although i've not had it long i can see they are going to be a nightmare and maybe regular blackin somehow. My trip home collecting her was very wet and salty and its almost been baked on....if you find a solution don't be shy pass it on.

Simon

GARY
24-03-10, 11:27 PM
Hi Sparky,
is there any develoment with the stainless rear arches,
Gary.

chiffer
08-05-10, 02:56 PM
Hi Sparky,

Any news yet on the stainless rear arches?

Stretch
11-10-11, 08:32 PM
Yip. Put my name on that list plz!.

cobracol
11-10-11, 08:53 PM
Dont know if original poster has gone awol, but still after some for AK/Dax fit

dobbo1969
11-10-11, 10:07 PM
Would be interested if the price is right

craggle
11-10-11, 10:18 PM
What, stainless stone guards?

If so I'm fairly sure Dax have them on the shelf now, May fit the AK too but probably nothing else as most other cars differ in their shape a bit.

Craig.

garry
11-10-11, 10:24 PM
Yes,interested.DAX


cheers
Garry

cobracol
12-10-11, 08:18 AM
I believe Dax's are £160+ Ouch!

craggle
12-10-11, 08:24 AM
If you want quality you have to pay for it. ;-)

Craig.

dave
12-10-11, 08:24 AM
Does anyone know for sure if the dax ones will fit the AK?
If not then anyone local with an AK is welcome to pop round for a test fit, I've usually got 3 or 4 pairs on the shelf here.

cobracol
12-10-11, 08:37 AM
Hi Dave, yes they do, It was explained to me that someone used to make them for Dax and AK using the same buck, but because AK because were selling them for quite a bit less than Dax, the supply to AK was taken away

dave
12-10-11, 09:16 AM
Hi Dave, yes they do, It was explained to me that someone used to make them for Dax and AK using the same buck, but because AK because were selling them for quite a bit less than Dax, the supply to AK was taken away

I don't think that is quite right.(I could be wrong though)
AFAIK. Dax commisioned the stone guards through an agent from a manufacturer in China. And I think Dax paid for the tooling etc. which gives them control over who gets whem wholesale and who doesn't.....


....In the same way that I have control over the rear screens for the DB style LeMans hardtops.

cobracol
12-10-11, 09:37 AM
Either way Ak can no longer supply stainless ones, Hence non on mine, so thinking about buying the ally ones and possibly having them chromed, or using heli tape to cover the arches

gd427man
12-10-11, 11:34 AM
I would love a set for my GD mk III but again I don't think they'll fit. Is he willing to make sets that could be copied from a set of GD ally ones?
Maybe us GD owners could club together to buy the ally ones for him to make the stainless ones from?
Or where is he located so he could take a pattern of someones car who is local?
I don't know why GD don't make stainless ones, everything alse they make is stainless!

Gd owners thoughts on the above!

Cheers.
Ian.

dgosumo
12-10-11, 01:26 PM
Did this ever happen? Has anyone seen these from sparky1606?

bloke from stoke
12-10-11, 07:42 PM
AWOL, maybe:(, his last post was 10-12-10 so 10 months ago:roll:

Kind regards Lester

robcob
12-10-11, 07:56 PM
AWOL, maybe:(, his last post was 10-12-10 so 10 months ago:roll:

Kind regards Lester


Why bother putting a post up saying that he can get them done when he quiet obviously he had no intention of doing so,or at least put a reply up saying he cannot get them made:neutral:.

Rob

chesterak
12-10-11, 09:26 PM
Does anyone know for sure if the dax ones will fit the AK?
If not then anyone local with an AK is welcome to pop round for a test fit, I've usually got 3 or 4 pairs on the shelf here.

Hi Dave,
If we can be sure they fit the AK body, I have a pair off you....

Happy Jim
12-10-11, 10:30 PM
I would love a set for my GD mk III but again I don't think they'll fit. Is he willing to make sets that could be copied from a set of GD ally ones?
Maybe us GD owners could club together to buy the ally ones for him to make the stainless ones from?
Or where is he located so he could take a pattern of someones car who is local?
I don't know why GD don't make stainless ones, everything alse they make is stainless!

Gd owners thoughts on the above!

Cheers.
Ian.

I'd hazard a guess the reason that no-one has stainless ones is that they are a pig to make due to thier shape, tons of hand labour = stupid price = zero sales

You could always have the alloy ones anodized if you don't like polishing? (they don't go that bad if you slap a coat of wax on them once a year)

Purple AK
12-10-11, 10:44 PM
I'd hazard a guess that said mate realised that stainless wasn't as malleable as ally! And could only be formed by pressing!

bloke from stoke
12-10-11, 11:21 PM
What the Purple one said, the cost would be for the start up, to get the press bits correct, then it's just how many can we sell to recoup the cost of the tooling and how fast

Kind regards Lester

bloke from stoke
12-10-11, 11:44 PM
You AK lot seem keen on this deal, so some one take an AK down, up, ,west east, to the Brooks and see if it fits an AK as well as a DAX, then you all can have some more shiney bits for your cobs

Kind Regards Lester

dave
13-10-11, 07:33 AM
Hi Dave,
If we can be sure they fit the AK body, I have a pair off you....

Hi Stan.
Unfortunately the ones I have on the shelf are for builds I have on the go.

If you AK guys can't bring yourself to call Dax then you could buy them from their ebay shop:-
Dax Cobra 427 Stainless Steel Rear Stoneguards | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dax-Cobra-427-Stainless-Steel-Rear-Stoneguards-/140547653706?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item20b94b004a)

cobracol
13-10-11, 09:15 AM
Hi Dave, Thanks for the link, no problem ringing dax, (or yourself) it is just the price i find hard to swallow, but they look so much better than the ally ones

stokeflyer
13-10-11, 10:15 AM
You AK lot seem keen on this deal, so some one take an AK down, up, ,west east, to the Brooks and see if it fits an AK as well as a DAX, then you all can have some more shiney bits for your cobs

Kind Regards Lester
Hi,
I could run my AK over to Dave's for a test fit when my hubs are back on if thats ok with Dave as I would like stainless ones too instead of the pitted ally ones I've got.
Rich

dave
13-10-11, 10:43 AM
I have spoken to AK this morning and they confirmed that the Dax stainless stone guards fit both early and late AK bodies.

Back in the early 1990's when I started building cobras the Dax alloy stone guards were about £50 a pair. Later the chrome on copper ones were about £70 a pair.
Stainless is a bitch to work in comparison to alloy or copper so to be fair I don't think they are massively over priced. If they were then someone else would start knocking them out a load cheaper.

tonym
13-10-11, 11:09 AM
If they were then someone else would start knocking them out a load cheaper.

Can I borrow a pair and see what my local panel shop can make them at?? :-)

dingocooke
13-10-11, 12:27 PM
I looked at making new ones for my first RAM, the problem most people encounter is they appear to be 'just simple triangles' however they are not, the stone guards are a subtle progressive compund curve, so you can only do them by either using an English wheel and various wooden dollies, making to suit each individual car or to a body buck/partial buck, or buy laying down a press tool. Going route 2 is expensive up fornt, but cheaper long term, just depends how quickly they can amortise the tooling costs.
If theyre £160 a pair as has been mentioned I would say thats pretty realistic

In the end I bought the ally DAX ones (they fitted the Ram perfectly with some subtle tweaking, hardly surprising when you think about the parentage!)

dave
13-10-11, 01:41 PM
Can I borrow a pair and see what my local panel shop can make them at?? :-)

They would be better off with a picture and your car to make them to.

Geezer
13-10-11, 09:20 PM
I'd be interested but I have a Dax. Any further info would be appreciated...

Broxy
09-12-14, 08:46 PM
Hi, Iv been speaking to a friend of mine recons he would be able to roll a set of the rear stone guards out of stainless steel 316, At the moment he has only a template for a mk3 pilgrim arch taken off my body, Was just wondering how many people might be interested in a set of these so hopefully the price could be kept down.

Hi, Did this ever get to the point that any were made. I had a quick look on ebay for the Dax ones but nothing comes up, and I am guessing with recent events they maybe are not doing them. I need a pair of stainless ones for my AK. Any ideas would be welcome, or group buy?

oiler0
10-12-14, 05:19 PM
i contacted DAX back in June and was told 12 weeks
now i cant get even get a response on the subject of stone guards from them

Broxy
11-12-14, 11:13 AM
i contacted DAX back in June and was told 12 weeks
now i cant get even get a response on the subject of stone guards from them

I have heard back from Simon at Dax today. They are not currently in stock, but should be in 8 weeks time. This sounds like a business opportunity to me as they are clearly hard to get hold of from any manufacturer!

andy miles
11-12-14, 11:02 PM
I have been trying to get Simon to get these in for months now,blood out of a stone springs to mind!

Broxy
12-12-14, 02:19 PM
I have been trying to get Simon to get these in for months now,blood out of a stone springs to mind!

Hi Andy.

I saw that someone else has been chasing them too from Dax. I have not had any dealings with Simon or Dax, but am aware that there has been a 'shake up' there, so I do not know when they will be available, other than what I was told and what I can read. I have an AK, its just a shame AK don' t do stainless ones, they only do ally ones. Maybe AK will read this and produce some.......please!!!!! Lol!

andy miles
14-12-14, 09:10 AM
Broxy,i personally think that they will never be available again,as you say it's a shame someone else out there couldn't start up a small production line of a good quality stone guard,i have a friend up in Hereford who is ace with an english wheel but wether he would be interested is another thing.....i may just get in touch with him,will keep you all posted......

Chimeara
14-12-14, 09:59 AM
I spoke to simon last week as I needed a set for a Dax I have in. There are 50 sets on their way and should be with them in 8 weeks time.

For the record AK ones will fit a Dax well but they are alloy. Just stop being lazy and keep them polished and they look just as good.

Broxy
14-12-14, 10:46 PM
I spoke to simon last week as I needed a set for a Dax I have in. There are 50 sets on their way and should be with them in 8 weeks time.

For the record AK ones will fit a Dax well but they are alloy. Just stop being lazy and keep them polished and they look just as good.


haha! Mine have been polished to within an inch of their lives, both by a professional polisher and by me. One side is great, but the other side just will not polish up to the standard I want, it is as if there are soft areas (defects) in the metal and just as you get a good finish, you get marks appearing in the finish, the professional guy got it as good as he could but it is not good enough for me! So I could start again with more Ally ones, or just bite the bullet and do it properly!

Firestarter29
14-12-14, 11:15 PM
Dax here, and id be interested.

I once got some Dax stone guards and hoped to fit them to my Sumo Mk2, but the radii were so wrong in many places it was never going to happen.

andy miles
07-01-15, 04:17 PM
Hi anyone heard anything from Dax about the stone guards yet?

oiler0
07-01-15, 04:46 PM
no I asked back in june last year and was told 12 weeks by simon

i would like to get hold of them asap as i now only fit shiny bits s to the car
it makes it look like you done some thing ?

Broxy
08-01-15, 09:20 AM
Hi anyone heard anything from Dax about the stone guards yet?

Andy, Simon at Dax quoted 8 weeks in the middle of December, so I would not expect them until mid Feb at the earliest!

andy miles
09-01-15, 10:05 AM
Angus,i will try and ring Shaun at Dax he may know a bit more,let's keep our fingers crossed!....Andy

aksportscars
09-01-15, 12:41 PM
Hi everyone hope all is well in the Cobra world.
Ak are currently having tooling made to offer Stainless Stone guards, these stone guards will fit both Ak and Dax Cobras.
Unfortunately these won't be available for sale until the 2nd week in March.
We have 25 sets on order so we will be able to supply without any issues.
Oncw in stock we will re post on Forum together with Facebook page and website.

Regards

Jon AK

andy miles
09-01-15, 04:34 PM
Hi Jon,
A last someone shows a light at the end of the dark tunnel!will the stoneguards fit the Dax really neatly and not have too much adjustment,only if they do mark me down now for a set,also what sort of money are you asking?look forward to your reply..........Andy

neville
09-01-15, 04:57 PM
Hi, I would be intersted for my Pilgrim Sumo Mk3 at the right price
Neville

TINKA
09-01-15, 05:05 PM
Hi, I would be intersted for my Pilgrim Sumo Mk3 at the right price
Neville

They won't fit a sumo as the rear arches are a very different shape.

Broxy
09-01-15, 06:44 PM
Hi everyone hope all is well in the Cobra world.
Ak are currently having tooling made to offer Stainless Stone guards, these stone guards will fit both Ak and Dax Cobras.
Unfortunately these won't be available for sale until the 2nd week in March.
We have 25 sets on order so we will be able to supply without any issues.
Oncw in stock we will re post on Forum together with Facebook page and website.

Regards

Jon AK

Thanks Jon, great news, and as I have an AK, really great news. As Andy has said, do you have an idea of the price yet, if it is sensible I will also be keen to purchase a set from you. Roll on March!

Broxy
09-01-15, 06:47 PM
Thanks Jon, great news, and as I have an AK, really great news. As Andy has said, do you have an idea of the price yet, if it is sensible I will also be keen to purchase a set from you. Roll on March!

Better still Jon, can we get a bulk order price for the initial purchase! I get the feeling there is a number of people on here who would like to upgrade to SS, so we might be able to help you order more on your initial order! Just a thought!

Murray
09-01-15, 08:51 PM
I bet they won't fit a Cobretti?????

aksportscars
10-01-15, 09:35 AM
I have not yet worked out an exact price but I think they will be around £150 + vat per set.
The Stone guards will fit AK and Dax really well but Will NOT fit any other makes.
Will keep you all up to date on progress.

Regards Jon AK

neville
10-01-15, 11:07 AM
hi, My Pilgrim Sumo is a cobra Mk3, did the make diferant models ?????
Neville

Firestarter29
10-01-15, 02:25 PM
hi, My Pilgrim Sumo is a cobra Mk3, did the make diferant models ?????
Neville

Hi Neville, yes there have been several incarnations of the Sumo (hence your being a mark 3) whether the arches changed shape or not I don't know.

Earlier in the thread I think someone stated that Dax and AK arches are the same shape (don't quote me) but what I can tell you is that Dax arches and Pilgrim Mk 2 are very different and stone guards for one won't fit the other without major surgery.

HTH

dgosumo
10-01-15, 05:31 PM
Hi Neville, yes there have been several incarnations of the Sumo (hence your being a mark 3) whether the arches changed shape or not I don't know.

Earlier in the thread I think someone stated that Dax and AK arches are the same shape (don't quote me) but what I can tell you is that Dax arches and Pilgrim Mk 2 are very different and stone guards for one won't fit the other without major surgery.

HTH
Later Mk2 and Mk3 Sumos have squared off arches over the rear wheels which are different to many other makes. Mk1s and early Mk2s have smooth arches similar to Dax (though I'm not sur if the angles are the same)

TINKA
10-01-15, 05:45 PM
hi, My Pilgrim Sumo is a cobra Mk3, did the make diferant models ?????
Neville

As I said nothing like and they wont fit sorry.

MADMICK
01-02-15, 06:03 PM
I also have an AK in my garage which is in build now (when warm enough) and would be interested in stainless, depending on cost of course.

oiler0
13-02-15, 09:34 AM
ANY news of the DAX rear s/steel stone guards
must be 8 weeks by now ?
oilero



I spoke to simon last week as I needed a set for a Dax I have in. There are 50 sets on their way and should be with them in 8 weeks time.

For the record AK ones will fit a Dax well but they are alloy. Just stop being lazy and keep them polished and they look just as good.

Chimeara
13-02-15, 09:39 AM
Nothing at all. I too am looking into a supply chain for these now though along with other Cobra related build parts for fellow cobra builders so as soon as I have news I will update.

aksportscars
13-02-15, 12:25 PM
Just had conformation that the stone guards will arrive with me w/c 23rd march. If you all want to join force and bulk buy a one off order, payment and delivered to one address I will sort out a special ONE off price.

Regards

Jon AK

peter v12 cobra
13-02-15, 02:11 PM
If any one is setting up a group buy of stone guards from AK sports cars I will be interested in a set for my Dax cobra

TINKA
13-02-15, 04:10 PM
Depending on the price I am also very interested in a set. :D :D

aksportscars
13-02-15, 05:08 PM
Better still Jon, can we get a bulk order price for the initial purchase! I get the feeling there is a number of people on here who would like to upgrade to SS, so we might be able to help you order more on your initial order! Just a thought!

Hi all, The stone guards will retail at £150 per set plus vat. A bulk order of ten or more will be £120 pus vat.
This will mean one invoice and one post address but a saving of £30 + vat.
I'll leave it up to you to sort out who is going to manage this your end.

Regards

Jon AK

leochas232
13-02-15, 06:46 PM
I'll have a set for my AK. Who's ordering? I don't have enough funds for 10 sets and then collect money later.

aksportscars
30-03-15, 02:47 PM
Good afternoon ,

I can now confirm that AK now have stainless steel stone guards to fit both our cars and also the Dax cars.
Please ring Carla or wendi to order for next day delivery.

Sorry it's took so long.

Jon AK

oiler0
03-04-15, 08:24 AM
do the stone guards fold up and around the wheel arch lip like on the originals ?
a picture would be good

Broxy
03-04-15, 09:01 AM
do the stone guards fold up and around the wheel arch lip like on the originals ?
a picture would be good

Yes, they wrap around the wheelarch just as the original ally ones do, but you should be aware they are slightly smaller than the ally ones, so the paintwork underneath needs to be good if you are swapping them over like I am. They do cover the original mounting holes, so I am very hopeful they will go on as a simple replacement. BTW, they look great, and sooooo much better than my old ally ones, can't wait to fit them, then I will attempt to upload a pic!

427jlc
03-04-15, 09:31 AM
For a £30 discount I would be in, but I can't be the host, thanks Lee

Broxy
03-04-15, 12:07 PM
Good afternoon ,

I can now confirm that AK now have stainless steel stone guards to fit both our cars and also the Dax cars.
Please ring Carla or wendi to order for next day delivery.

Sorry it's took so long.

Jon AK

Hi Jon,

I offered up the passenger side stone guard, which I think you said was the better fit (I could have got that wrong) but on my AK the radius of the wheelarch is not matched by the guard, the only way I can get it to match leaves it hanging off the arch at the bottom by well over an inch, but I don't think that is the position it should be positioned anyway. I have a 2008 AK, possibly a 2007 body, has there been any changes to the radius of the wheel arch in that time? I know you said they might need some fettling to make them fit, but this seems too far off for gentle re-shaping, to get it to follow the wheel arch would risk folding the metal as it is turned over to wrap around under the arch and that would crease it I think. Any advice? Have you fitted any to your AK's there yet?
p.s. has anyone else fitted theirs yet, what am I doing wrong lol!

Highlander
03-04-15, 01:56 PM
Hi Jon,

I offered up the passenger side stone guard, which I think you said was the better fit (I could have got that wrong) but on my AK the radius of the wheelarch is not matched by the guard, the only way I can get it to match leaves it hanging off the arch at the bottom by well over an inch, but I don't think that is the position it should be positioned anyway. I have a 2008 AK, possibly a 2007 body, has there been any changes to the radius of the wheel arch in that time? I know you said they might need some fettling to make them fit, but this seems too far off for gentle re-shaping, to get it to follow the wheel arch would risk folding the metal as it is turned over to wrap around under the arch and that would crease it I think. Any advice? Have you fitted any to your AK's there yet?
p.s. has anyone else fitted theirs yet, what am I doing wrong lol!

Nothing Angus, I offered mine up last night and found the same as you, O/S fits a treat, N/S will need some amount of fettling to get it to bend far enough to meet the existing arch radius! I will wait to see what Jon recommends.
Mine is a Gen II collected in December.

neil still building it
03-04-15, 08:01 PM
presumably these'll fit a RAM too if they fit a DAX ?? given their similar parentage....
neil