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Quickfirefred
04-10-10, 08:42 PM
I was on my way to the I V A today when i had a small problem.I was traveling at 65 mph on the M42 when the back wheel came off and over took the car.My first thought was oh F**K:shock: but i three wheeled into the hard shoulder jumped out and after running for 15 minuets i found the wheel and returned to the car.Damage not so bad rear overriders knackered and back plate that the brakes fit to other than that not to bad. When i checked what had happened it seems that the main bold that screws onto the drive shaft had just come undone which i find strange as i know it was as tight as poss any thoughts members? not on what a twat:oops: i am!! But on what could of happened or how to fix the problem

KevinW
04-10-10, 08:54 PM
Shit!!!!!

Assuming your car is a sierra/granada-based sumo - they are threaded anticlockwise one way and clockwise on the other side. Have you transposed the driveshafts (or part of them), so that as you drove they slowly unwound themselves? The other thing is were they torqued up correctly - they require a huge torque on them - I had to use an agricultural torque wrench to get it right - normal automotive torque wrenches arent man enough for the job.

anyway glad you are (a) OK, and (b) didnt get clobbered by plod.

I guess that was an expensive mistake - or did you actually make it to the test !?

Quickfirefred
04-10-10, 10:09 PM
I have to say i did not use a torque wrench just spanered them up as far as they would go.Thanks yes im fine other than my pocket .So is there no other locking part to this like a split pin etc that would stop them coming undone its just im alittle uneasy now about taking this back on the road. This was my second I V A test AND NO I DID NOT MAKE IT

bloke from stoke
04-10-10, 10:31 PM
I have to say i did not use a torque wrench just spanered them up as far as they would go.Thanks yes im fine other than my pocket .So is there no other locking part to this like a split pin etc that would stop them coming undone its just im alittle uneasy now about taking this back on the road. This was my second I V A test AND NO I DID NOT MAKE IT

Oh Bugger that is a bad thing to happen, at least you are OK and the boys in blue did not get involved.

If youwant I'll as my best spanner mate in the morning for any tips and or ideas

Kind regards Lester

Quickfirefred
04-10-10, 10:36 PM
Yeah if you could do that that would be great because at the moment this is the first time in 5 years where im thinking do i really want to keep my sumo it really has me feeling unhappy with driving it

Purple AK
04-10-10, 10:40 PM
Bad Luck :( And lucky both you or no one else was injured. I'm supprised you didn't hear/feel anything amiss before the wheel came off though :confused: As said the nuts need to be torqued to 270Nm/199Lbft which is F...... Tight!

slogger
04-10-10, 10:58 PM
My God, you would had been well Plodded. We had a trailer come away from one of our large vans a couple of years back. No one was hurt and no other vehicle involved, but the trouble the poor guy found himself in was unreal. Plod, VOSA, HSE, Kent Highways, insurance investigator and our company management.:(

Glad you're ok, but Chris does have a point.

DON'T DO IT AGAIN!:shock:

bloke from stoke
04-10-10, 11:02 PM
Yeah if you could do that that would be great because at the moment this is the first time in 5 years where im thinking do i really want to keep my sumo it really has me feeling unhappy with driving it

Don't give up mate, loads of great help on here,you will forget it when you are on the road and enjoying the sun shine.

First things first, check the "handedness" of the nuts, as Kevin says and then as Chris says torque them up to the required grunt

Kind regards Lester

Quickfirefred
04-10-10, 11:07 PM
Well as for the "handedness" of the nuts the wheel that came off was on the rear passenger side and that nut has a anticlockwise thread if that helps

bloke from stoke
04-10-10, 11:29 PM
Well as for the "handedness" of the nuts the wheel that came off was on the rear passenger side and that nut has a anticlockwise thread if that helps

That sounds correct as the wheel is rotating anti clock and should tighten rather than undo, so, sounds like you need to sog it up to the torque level that Chris states, if you aint got the gear, phone around, and find someone who has the tool or hire one if you can

Kind regards Lester

PS Can someone who knows more than me confirm this is correct as I don't want to kill Fred

cobracol
05-10-10, 12:13 AM
Sorry i cant be of much help with this but glad you and the car are ok, but some simplistick possibilities, would thread lock not do the job?, or failing that, drill a hole through the lot and split pin it?, or even if there is enough thread left put on another nut and lock the two together?

Clive
05-10-10, 12:22 AM
Bloody Nora! I don't think I would have been travelling at that speed before I had a man look my car over! :shock:

Vidge
05-10-10, 02:31 AM
Bloody hell, you did well to keep that on the road let alone get it off with the small amount of damage you described. Have you stopped shaking yet ?

Little bit of advice for anyone in a similar position. You are allowed to take the car for a MOT test before the IVA, take it somewhere close and friendly. Have them check the car over thoroughly, pay for an hour or two of the fitters time. Ford based kits find a ford specialist locally, Jag based the Jag specialist etc.

I took mine to a Jag specialist nearby, he checked out the rear hubs, he found nothing wrong but undid them and torqued them up again after packing the races out with more grease. Same with the front hub's although they have locking nut's on them, checked the brakes, ran the car on the rollers with the hand brake applied to bed the shoes in, laser aligned the wheels bits and bobs like that.

It's worth doing just for your own peace of mind and you get to set the emissions up for the test !

Cheers

Andy

Quickfirefred
05-10-10, 03:07 AM
Oh yes i would be the first to say i was lucky but as for having it checked out i thought i had. It was at the I V A 3 weeks ago failed on 6 small things most of which were in the cockpit every thing else passed with flying colours also had been to a tyre fitters to set camber and tracking. So i thought that as it had been checked over by people more in the know than me i must be fine ................how wrong i was!!!

Chimeara
05-10-10, 07:54 AM
Just read this and cant believe that your here to tell the tale. Seriously lucky.

But do not be put off, these cars are awesome when you finally get them on the road and all the niggles sorted.

As for having the car checked over, you could have done this a thousand times without having driven the car and that nut would be at the tension you tightened it to. I dont think a ford specialist without asking them to would torque up every nut and bolt on the car if you simply took it there for a check over.

If it were that loose IVA would have picked it up. It is only at the point you started driving it that the loosening has occured and caused the problem so dont beat yourself up that your not in the know or that someone else would have found the problem because unless you knew it was loose and asked them to torque it im sure it would not have been done.

A left hand thread nut is hard to put on a Right hand thread and vice verca so I think its simply the nut was not tight enough. Only contradiction to this is the other side is still on, its worth checking how tight that one still is and then torque correctly.


Were the driveshafts and nuts new or re used sierra ones that could be a contributing factor.

I would replace that driveshaft, wheel bearing and nut as a matter of course now and torque as the manufactureres state and threadlock everything aswell.

Then buy an adult nappy and take it steady checking the nuts after every short drive until your happy its not going to do it again. It wont be long until we are reading your throwing your car into bends on a track day at 100mph plus.

Good luck and if there is anything I can help or advise with further give me a shout

Austin
05-10-10, 08:20 AM
Glad to hear your ok, if not a little shaken. But after 5 years donít give up!

I took the short cut and bought my car and despite it being well built and well looked after, it was several weeks before I felt comfortable driving it as I kept expecting things to drop off / fail on me. I took my car in for a full service & pre MOT check and was given a full clean bill of health which developed my trust with the car. Now I am as happy as a monkey at a KP factory every time I see / hear / drive my car and its never missed a beat.

Take your time, get the car fully checked (Professional garage or someone who has built their own off here) and build that confidence and belief back up.

You cant spend 5 yrs in the garage to not spend 5yrs on the road.

mic n gill
05-10-10, 08:21 AM
Try lock wire,works on aircraft---Mic

Paul B
05-10-10, 08:34 AM
And always use new nuts.

Obvious I know but I am sure there are those that don't.

I am so glad that you were able to walk away from this with nothing more than stained underpants !!

Cheers

Paul

Purple AK
05-10-10, 08:58 AM
Just to summerise what the others have said.

Yes the threads are left and right handed, the LH one is on the NS.

The nuts are "single use" (you always get a new one in a wheel bearing kit) So get new ones if you used the old ones. This applies to anyone else that has used the old ones!!

If you are worried about the thread on the shaft, you can get new ones without replacing the whole driveshaft. Nuts and stubs available here http://www.westfield-sportscars.co.uk/shop/prodtype.asp?PT_ID=71&numRecordPosition=11&ph=&strKeywords=&&strSearchCriteria= for example.

Do the nuts up to the correct torque 270Nm! If you can't borrow a suitable torque wrench, any commercial tyre depot should have one and will probably torque them up for you for a drink.

Lastly. Don't give up :( It might seem like a major pitfall, but IT WILL be worth it in the end ;)

cperry
05-10-10, 09:44 AM
Assuming your car is a sierra/granada-based sumo - they are threaded anticlockwise one way and clockwise on the other side. Have you transposed the driveshafts (or part of them), so that as you drove they slowly unwound themselves? The other thing is were they torqued up correctly - they require a huge torque on them - I had to use an agricultural torque wrench to get it right - normal automotive torque wrenches arent man enough for the job.

If you have a Sierra set up, I'm fairly sure it next to impossible to fit the drive shafts the wrong way round cos they're different lengths, you should notice the diff is not quite in the middle of the car. In the automotive industry we call it "error proofing" !

I think the torque may have been your downfall

PS I was travelling on the opposite carriageway and saw you parked up, if looked very nasty from my side, if it's any consolation I shed a tear for you.

Quickfirefred
05-10-10, 10:08 AM
Oh god NO i was spotted by one of you guys as well it gets worse! other than only having 3 wheels did you like the look of it lol.

KevinW
05-10-10, 10:08 AM
I think Chris has summarised all the key points.
I was obviously wrong about swapping drive shafts.

A minor point, just to add, the sierra drive shafts had 2 types of nut:
Many cars left the factors with a standard nut 'peened' onto the driveshaft stub (which can be a pain to remove).

But when you rebuild them with new bearings etc, you will usually be supplied with a handed nylock. When I torqued mine up (with nylocks) using a heavy duty torque wrench and an extension pole, I could have actually gone a bit tighter tan the required spec even then. But there was absolutely no way I could have got to that spec with a standard wrench and a 3 foot handle.

Quickfirefred
05-10-10, 11:58 AM
Well i have had a chat to pilgrim and we have found one of the problems. I had my drive shafts reconed the nuts on them were not nylock as a first time builder i never picked up on it and the company that did them has since gone out of business. Pilgrim are now sending me some nuts

bloke from stoke
05-10-10, 01:00 PM
Well i have had a chat to pilgrim and we have found one of the problems. I had my drive shafts reconed the nuts on them were not nylock as a first time builder i never picked up on it and the company that did them has since gone out of business. Pilgrim are now sending me some nuts

Best of luck with your new nuts:p;)

Sounds like you have found the issues that caused the problem,no nyloc and sog em up tighter to the correct torque

Kind regards Lester

KevinW
05-10-10, 07:05 PM
... so torque 'em up to spec, and if they arent nylocks, you'll need to peen them on.

best of luck, Kevin

Carl L
05-10-10, 11:08 PM
Key points to ensure they won't come undone again.

1. Make sure the hubs are on the right side - Left and Right hand threads!
2. Get new Nylock Nuts and tighten to 270Nm
3. Apply some threadlock to ensure no movement
4. Check after the fitst 500 miles.

If fitted correctly, the nuts get tighter the more you use the car and should you decide to remove them at a later stage, you will either need a 'bloodly' large break bar / tube or a good nut runner.

Good luck on your next visit to IVA

Carl.

dolphinboy400
05-10-10, 11:56 PM
also dont tell the IVA guy what happened ;)

Stu J
06-10-10, 07:50 AM
also dont tell the IVA guy what happened ;)
Believe me... he probably already knows :shock:

steve_h
06-10-10, 05:42 PM
Had the MOT last month

failed on excess wear on rear hubs........................................YUP loose old hub nuts,
nearly s**t myself as Ive done 4000 mile Le Mans and some fast road stuff this year

does prove the point of one time only for nylocks

we sheared a torque wrench doing the nut back up! has to get the biggest mechanic at work to do it up f......... tight.

Steve

cobra_01
06-10-10, 07:50 PM
glad to see you made it out ok :) lucky break there!!! but i do have one thing on my mind...

the car in question is the car to be tested for a IVA right? if so, why was it being driven to the test in the first place seeing that its a untested vehicle???

anyone want to clear that up for me???? because if you can drive to test centres in the car to be tested i wont bother buying/renting a trailer for mine

wilf
06-10-10, 08:10 PM
Yes, you can do that - car must be going to/from a pre-arranged test, and be insured for road use.

Lots of discussion here on various threads about this in the past.

You could also do this for a pre-IVA MOT. Hint.

cobra_01
06-10-10, 08:16 PM
ok, so how can it be insured for road use if its not a regestered car? sorry for the questions but i am sure that if your car isnt regestered, it cant get a mot, and without mot cannot get insurance or tax so if the plods did stop and get involved in this situation the car will be impounded or destroyed, and probably get a heavy fine and possibly points on licence or ban

wilf
06-10-10, 08:28 PM
Insure it and MOT it on the VIN number.

It IS legal and possible.

No VED required for trips to/from MOT or IVA.

Of course, you don't have to believe me, I only did it myself, and so have many others.

Purple AK
06-10-10, 08:29 PM
ok, so how can it be insured for road use if its not a regestered car? sorry for the questions but i am sure that if your car isnt regestered, it cant get a mot, and without mot cannot get insurance or tax so if the plods did stop and get involved in this situation the car will be impounded or destroyed, and probably get a heavy fine and possibly points on licence or banSimples. It is insured (or MOT'd) on the vin number.

cobra_01
06-10-10, 08:31 PM
well thats just dandy then, mr trailer man can bite my shoes in that case!!! :P

thanks for clearing that up :D

Quickfirefred
06-10-10, 11:03 PM
Well after what happened to me if i were you get a trailer but if you want to go down that road you can drive your car to the test as long as you have insurance then it is legal.I have checked this with the I V A and the DVLA and they both told me this so its your call

wilf
07-10-10, 08:10 AM
By the way Fred (?), my apologies for jumping in on this thread without expressing sympathy for your plight. Consider it expressed.
Any nearer to understanding exactly what happened?

cobra_01
07-10-10, 09:07 AM
thanks for that Fred, i'll drive it as my wheels have nyloc and i have notched the nut into the groove on the driveshafts

goughy
07-10-10, 11:02 AM
What does not make sense is that you can legally drive to the IVA, if you have insurance, and theoretically at this point there is a ? over the road condition of the car. You can pass your IVA, so have some confidence the car is roadworthy, but then you cannot drive to your local DVLA for the road tax inspection!!!

robinj66
07-10-10, 11:06 AM
What does not make sense is that you can legally drive to the IVA, if you have insurance, and theoretically at this point there is a ? over the road condition of the car. You can pass your IVA, so have some confidence the car is roadworthy, but then you cannot drive to your local DVLA for the road tax inspection!!!


Welcome to the great British beaurocracy;)


It's this way because the Road Traffic legislation allows for untaxed vehicles to be driven to and from pre-arranged mandatory tests. This cetainly covers the IVA but there is a question mark over whether an MOT is actually necessary before registration at DVLA (ie, no two people in VOSA/DVLA can give you the same answer)

tigergreen
07-10-10, 06:16 PM
The only issue with driving to the IVA test is that should the examiner find something seriously wrong which, in his opinion, deems the car too dangerous to drive, you will not be allowed to drive it home again afterwards and will have to arrange recovery.

Andy.

dolphinboy400
07-10-10, 09:43 PM
The only issue with driving to the IVA test is that should the examiner find something seriously wrong which, in his opinion, deems the car too dangerous to drive, you will not be allowed to drive it home again afterwards and will have to arrange recovery.

Andy.

the best point made so far. Which is why we all say get a MOT done before you go to IVA. However in the OP's case it may not had made any difference.

If you have a local garage and you know the guys/girls, then take it there and pay for a 2 hr examine ( as previously mentioned ), and stay with them when they do it in case they have any questions.

v8pete
23-10-10, 09:55 PM
Glad to hear that all was OK in the end!

Reminds me of my final SVA re-test 10 years ago - we'd finally gotten through the brake test this time & I'd just been handed my MAC certificate. On the way home, as we slowed down on the approach to a roundabout on the dual carriageway, I touched the brakes & BANG!...car pulls hard across the carriageway..no damage though as we come to a slow halt...
...in all the messing with the front brakes prior to the test I'd forgotten to tighten the caliper bolts...which had only been finger-tight. Car had just passed the SVA moments earlier like this though. One of the mounting lugs had completely sheared off the Princess 4-pot!!

Pete