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David Large
18-03-01, 04:45 PM
Right guys, there must be somebody who can advise me. I have a BRA 289 with P6 high compression (10.5:1) engine. I am contemplating new heads from RPI...lots of dosh! I can go for std. heads or stage 1 and I need to reduce the compression ratio to run unleaded. I would also fit a mild cam. Who has done this? Will I notice a difference? Is it worth the investment? Heads 500; cam set 250; Mallory distributor and leads 300; all plus vat and sundries?
Who has gone down this route?
David Large

imported_admin
18-03-01, 08:22 PM
Perhaps before spending the dosh have a chat with those awfully nice guys at REAL Steel 01895 440505. Rover type specialist people who have been very helpfull to me in the past. I have a Rover V8 Ak with the Circa 1985 engine, been worked Viper cam, valves head work, Holley etc, yes you do know the difference to a non worked enjoy, pending on how loud you press the faster faster pedal.It runs unleaded and has proved to be a good reasonably econmical engine, with the right amount of grin factor when letting the pedal do the talking.
HTH
Nigel

Bob
19-03-01, 06:55 PM
Before you fart around with heads what carb are you running. Plus if your running a P6 block I would look seriously at using a later than 1984 block there much stiffer: but not later than July 92 if dont want serious emmissions ##### .I fitted stage one unleaded heads and an Edelbrock performer set up from RPI thats a performance manifold and and a 500cfm four choke carb also a piper 270/2 cam this a fairly low tune set up for a road car 200BHP plus. I;m still building my car so I cant say how it will run until Junre my dead line. But one thing I have learned is that throwing money at an old engine that has not been sorted is a mistake. And that Chevy's and Ford 302'S give more power for less money. All up I recon Iv'e spent ove 2 grand on my engine and it will never deliver like a Chevy but there again I not asking it to im building a posers machine not a flying machine. RPI are a very good firm talk to Holly if you want good advise he knows Rover V8's inside out.

David Large
14-05-01, 09:01 PM
>Before you fart around with heads what carb are you running. Plus if
>your running a P6 block I would look seriously at using a later than
>1984 block there much stiffer: but not later than July 92 if dont want
>serious emmissions ##### .I fitted stage one unleaded heads and an
>Edelbrock performer set up from RPI thats a performance manifold and
>and a 500cfm four choke carb also a piper 270/2 cam this a fairly low
>tune set up for a road car 200BHP plus. I;m still building my car so I
>cant say how it will run until Junre my dead line. But one thing I
>have learned is that throwing money at an old engine that has not been
>sorted is a mistake. And that Chevy's and Ford 302'S give more power
>for less money. All up I recon Iv'e spent ove 2 grand on my engine and
>it will never deliver like a Chevy but there again I not asking it to
>im building a posers machine not a flying machine. RPI are a very good
>firm talk to Holly if you want good advise he knows Rover V8's inside
>out.

Bob,
I know you gave me good advice about spending money on an old engine but , well I went and bought the RPI stage 1 heads and the mallory set up and it's all fitted. The car runs/starts well and goes ok but probably would benefit from being properly set up. My car is a BRA 289 and the chassis won't take a small block Ford or Chevy. The right solution would be a nice shiny Rover 4.6 but this will have to wait until the kids have finished at university. When we finished the car 12 years ago we fitted it with a Holley 390 and Offenhauser manifold and that is still on the car. I don't want an out and out racer (just as well 'cos I'd be starting from the wrong place now). I want something that looks nice, goes adequately and will take me in reasonable comfort to Le Mans and other nice places and back.
I hope your build is going well.
David Large

kev
15-05-01, 09:42 PM
Now you've got the engine upgraded do you notice a significant difference?
Have you had the engine dyno'ed before and after?
I'm interested to hear what your opinion is, as I will shortly be making similar decisions as to how to cost effectively improve the Rover.

Kev

imported_admin
15-05-01, 11:01 PM
To give you an idea I have a 4.6 engine built by john earles with big valve heads and a chipped ecu for the fuel injection it was dynod by john eales at 270bhp with 290ft lbs to get any more hp it needed to go to 4.8 the cost was approx 4000.For more info go to the rpi web site

David Large
16-05-01, 06:10 AM
>Now you've got the engine upgraded do you notice a significant
>difference?
>Have you had the engine dyno'ed before and after?
>I'm interested to hear what your opinion is, as I will shortly be
>making similar decisions as to how to cost effectively improve the
>Rover.
>
>Kev

Kev,
The car is running well but at the moment I wouldn't say there is a dramatic change. The engine doesn't seem to be as free reving as before but it needs properly setting up. I have not yet changed the cam. The engine has not been dyno'ed either before or after. This engine we bouight as a reconditioned unit in 1986 and put it in the BRA with a Holley on. It has done 25,000 miles since 1989 when we registered the BRA. Part of my reason for changing things was to be able to use unleaded fuel; RPI heads with a composite gasket bring down the compression ratio. Sorry, at the moment nothing terribly conclusive.
David

David Large
16-05-01, 06:12 AM
>To give you an idea I have a 4.6 engine built by john earles with big
>valve heads and a chipped ecu for the fuel injection it was dynod by
>john eales at 270bhp with 290ft lbs to get any more hp it needed to go
>to 4.8 the cost was approx 4000.For more info go to the rpi web site

That sounds just the ticket; I will have to start saving
David Large

David Large
20-05-01, 06:27 AM
In this discussion, one of the things that is preventing me knowing how well my engine is going after the new heads and distributor, is the lack of a timing pointer on the front of the block. My engine has never had one but has always run well. Now however with all the messing about the timing is currently only guessed, so could be well out and I cannot locate a pointer! Have spoken to Holly at RPI, he says they have none. Is there anybody who can help me or even lend me a pointer. The engine is a P6, 10.5:1 comp ratio; Holley says an SD1 pointer will fit but anything off a Range Rover block will not. We have tried 2 or 3 found locally but they are obviously not the right type. Anybody out there with a P6 timing cover lying about?
David Large

David
20-05-01, 12:31 PM
I am not sure if you need to reduce the compression ratio of the engine, but you certainly do not want to increase it. 10.5/1 C/R is probably the max you can go to without worrying too much about which type of fuel to use, although you would have to be pretty accurate with your ignition timing and your mixture settings to prevent detonation. Just a thought...

imported_admin
21-05-01, 07:17 PM
Hi I am running a 1972 3500s(te he no emissions test!!!)
its out of a p6 and on 10.5 to 1 comp ratio
It runs fine on unleaded as the valve material is compatable!!
comp ratio is fine!!
T.V.R'S (tuscan challenge) run 11.2!!!
retard timimg by app 4 deg (static)
Do u know the 3500s is 185 bhp as standard?

NOT 163bhp!

I have a piper cam 270
webber 500
performer manifold(matched to ports)
vitesse stage 2 heads(vitesse had bigger valves as standard)
ported/polished
lumenition (the dogs)
accel coil-rover relies on v.good spark for power
11mm leads (need good leads with electronic ignition)


It came from a capri conversion and without webber/manifold
and still running on points(not good idea)

It had rolling road print out at 203 bhp

Thats not bad!!!

so with the extra bits should be around 220 ish

Chevvy engines weigh over twice as much as the rover
so do ford v6's and jag engines

so therefore power to weight ratio is not much difference.
also not putting all the weight on the front end improves the hadling
no end!!!!!!!

only one thing to watch for on your engine is the front crank seal
sometimes they leak abit


I have a pointer on my engine it is just a bent piece of steel
send me 5 and I'll make u an exact copy in st/st if u like!

David Large
22-05-01, 05:22 AM
>Hi I am running a 1972 3500s(te he no emissions test!!!)
>its out of a p6 and on 10.5 to 1 comp ratio
>It runs fine on unleaded as the valve material is compatable!!
>comp ratio is fine!!
>T.V.R'S (tuscan challenge) run 11.2!!!
>retard timimg by app 4 deg (static)
>Do u know the 3500s is 185 bhp as standard?
>
>NOT 163bhp!
>
>I have a piper cam 270
>webber 500
>performer manifold(matched to ports)
>vitesse stage 2 heads(vitesse had bigger valves as standard)
>ported/polished
>lumenition (the dogs)
>accel coil-rover relies on v.good spark for power
>11mm leads (need good leads with electronic ignition)
>
>
>It came from a capri conversion and without webber/manifold
>and still running on points(not good idea)
>
>It had rolling road print out at 203 bhp
>
>Thats not bad!!!
>
>so with the extra bits should be around 220 ish
>
>Chevvy engines weigh over twice as much as the rover
>so do ford v6's and jag engines
>
>so therefore power to weight ratio is not much difference.
>also not putting all the weight on the front end improves the hadling
>no end!!!!!!!
>
>only one thing to watch for on your engine is the front crank seal
>sometimes they leak abit
>
>
>I have a pointer on my engine it is just a bent piece of steel
>send me 5 and I'll make u an exact copy in st/st if u like!

If I worked the technology right I think I have ordered one from Rimmer Bros, but thanks for your offer; I know it's a simple bit of metal; but of course I've never seen one! If I don't get the right thing I'll take up your deal. Your engine sounds good.
David
>
>
>

David Large
22-05-01, 07:08 PM
>Hi I am running a 1972 3500s(te he no emissions test!!!)
>its out of a p6 and on 10.5 to 1 comp ratio
>It runs fine on unleaded as the valve material is compatable!!
>comp ratio is fine!!
>T.V.R'S (tuscan challenge) run 11.2!!!
>retard timimg by app 4 deg (static)
>Do u know the 3500s is 185 bhp as standard?
>
>NOT 163bhp!
>
>I have a piper cam 270
>webber 500
>performer manifold(matched to ports)
>vitesse stage 2 heads(vitesse had bigger valves as standard)
>ported/polished
>lumenition (the dogs)
>accel coil-rover relies on v.good spark for power
>11mm leads (need good leads with electronic ignition)
>
>
>It came from a capri conversion and without webber/manifold
>and still running on points(not good idea)
>
>It had rolling road print out at 203 bhp
>
>Thats not bad!!!
>
>so with the extra bits should be around 220 ish
>
>Chevvy engines weigh over twice as much as the rover
>so do ford v6's and jag engines
>
>so therefore power to weight ratio is not much difference.
>also not putting all the weight on the front end improves the hadling
>no end!!!!!!!
>
>only one thing to watch for on your engine is the front crank seal
>sometimes they leak abit
>
>
>I have a pointer on my engine it is just a bent piece of steel
>send me 5 and I'll make u an exact copy in st/st if u like!
>
>Roger, I ordered online to Rimmers (out of their on-line catalogue), they e mailed an ackowledgemnt and today in the post I have had the 2 screws and washers arrive with a note to say that the pointers are no longer available!!!!; so subject to a scrapyard hunt at the weekend, I'll take up your offer of an exact copy in s/s for a fiver. E mail me on Largefamily@compuserve.com or call me on 0121 358 2007 to tell me where to send the cash.
Cheers
David
>

Bob
23-05-01, 04:44 PM
I am glad you got a good result. I agree with you you should build want you want its your car after all..

David Large
23-05-01, 10:43 PM
Bob, Thanks for your comment. My 289 has given me a great deal of pleasure over 16 years, 4 years in build and 12 on the road. It is, as they all are an absolutely individual motor that even got a mention in Snake Torque in spring/summer 1989 edition! Having said that, if I acquire some more cash ,well just maybe a small block Chevy powered GD would definitely be a possibility!
David

David Large
26-05-01, 06:41 PM
Bob,
Hope you had a good holiday.
Thanks for the phone call, the timing pointer arrived in the post this morning. Have fitted it and set the timing although it was not far out. I think the next thing is to empty the wallet again and go for a rolling road tune up to sort out the Holley following the engine changes.
I OWE YOU A BEER!

David Large

cobraman
27-05-01, 08:23 PM
Let Me make this very short!.....WHY..OH WHY..do people spend up to 4 grand on a Rover?..I am COMPLETELY at a loss!...Just give your 4(or 2 come to that!) grand to Real Steel or Better still Kenny at EDA...and collect your 500 brake Ford or Chevy!!...Don't get Me wrong,I like the Rover..BUT 4 GRAND!!..I'll build you a medium riser side oiler 427 for that!!....DJ

David Large
28-05-01, 08:30 AM
Hi DJ
Your simple logic is impeccable, but of course people start from different positions and you are assuming that everybody wants the same.
We built our BRA 289 between 1985 & 1989 in a chassis that had originally been built around MGB engine mountings and then developed for Rover V8; the advice was that it would not take small block Yank. Reconditioned Rover engines were cheap and light; gearboxes were not a problem. So my car is built around that. If I wanted a bit more power (and I do not want 500 BHP; it would wreck the rest of the car) then there is no way I am going to change the whole installation, take account of the weight, the durability of the running gear, the brakes etc, etc, so I would pay out for whatever level of Rover I wanted to. That is my choice.
Somebody on this web site has commented that there is no problem putting large Yank power outputs through a Sierra diff. because they are cheap and you can put in a new one every few months when they fail; that is a valid approach but would not meet everybody's aspirations of a well engineered product; we are all different.
If I were now building new from scratch now then I probably would go small block but there must be plenty of people who build cheap to start with using all Rover and then upgrade and stick to Rover for the reasons above, and why not.
I'm happy. :-) :-)

Regards
David (silver surfer with a 289)

wilf
28-05-01, 09:23 AM
Cobraman - your comment about a 427 side oiler for 4 grand is kinda interesting - tell me how you can get hold of one of the rarest period US engines and rebuild it for that kind of money??? My own research a while ago, which included lots of discussions with our friends over the water lead me to believe that $10 - 11k is the minimum you could get a reasonable 427 side oiler for, and at that price it would come with the cylinder block half full of epoxy cement to allow a rebore on an engine that was out to it's limits when new - they even had to specially select the blocks for concentricity of cylinder bore casting. So come on - have you found a barn full of the things??

Wilf

Bob
03-06-01, 10:41 AM
No probs glad you got it. I look forward to meeting you sometime.

imported_admin
08-06-01, 08:05 PM
Rover engines!!
Look its simple its all about weight!!
Why was the original cobra nick named the "widow maker"
Because it didn't go round corners!!!
fact!
So u dont need so much bhp to get it shifting!
AND it goes round corners
I'd say 250-300 bhp give same performance as standard small block!
Anyway it's 3000 for a new chevvy small block (when y've bought all the bits to go on it carbs/dizzy etc>)
U can have a 4.6 rover for not much more
Plus it's cheaper to insure/petrol etc

Given the cash i'd have a 5.2/6.0 rover over a ford or chevvy anyday


E.g car weighs 1300(chevvy/ford)1000/1300=.76923*bhp(250)=192.32bhp Per ton


car weighs 1000(rover)1000/1000=1*bhp(185/200)=185/200 bhp per ton


less wear on suspension and brakes 100 cheaper a month on fuel!
You cant go wrong

chevvy do make ally racing block but they start at $22,000
Could buy an entire car for that!!!

wilf
10-06-01, 09:25 PM
Roger - you are sooo right about power to weight ratios, but I think your weight estimates are a little off. My Crendon, which is by no means a lightweight build, weighed 1080kg, with a full tank and me in it (SVA weigh scales). This with stroker ford small block, albeit with ally heads/water pump etc. SO - 450 bhp/1080kg = 417bhp/tonne. With 56% front/44% rear weight distribution it handles OK, and there is no way any Rover-engined cob is gonna live with it!!
I know I haven't taken cost into account, but remember the old saying when it comes to grunt - too much is almost enough!

Wilf

robert
10-06-01, 10:06 PM
Ahhhhhh

I feel a test coming along.

The track day I have organised does actually have a timed 1/4 mile section. Roger, would you be willing to put your lightweight Rover up against my Chevy Powered GD??????

There is no replacement for displacement and all that blah blah blah...

Robert

The Whistler!

wilf
11-06-01, 01:27 PM
Whistler - can I smell fried clutches??
Seriuosly tho' - I didn't know there was a 1/4 mile for our use on the track day - it just gets better and better. Hopefully my Crendon will be fully run in by then so you might just have some competition??? Please please please make sure we get a dry day!!!!

Wilf (Colonel Clanger) Leek

imported_admin
11-06-01, 04:59 PM
a 4.6/5.2.6l will keep up no probs
As for the track day lets put some ground rules down:

1. The car u run has too be built by the owner

2. normally asperated (no turbos,BLOWERS,or nitro)

3. wait six months till mine is finished!!!!!

robert
11-06-01, 05:50 PM
>a 4.6/5.2.6l will keep up no probs

Subjective.



>As for the track day lets put some ground rules down:
>
>1. The car u run has too be built by the owner

Why should the car have to be built by the owner??? Surely there is no difference between a factory built and a owner built car, lets face it, its the engine we are talking about here, NOT the ancilliaries. x(

>
>2. normally asperated (no turbos,BLOWERS,or nitro)

Thats no problem, I can disconnect my supercharger, then I am only running a standard EDA engine..... :D

>
>3. wait six months till mine is finished!!!!!

Are we on for the 2002 track day then????? :P

While we are chatting, my normally aspirated engine is good for 380bhp and 350lb/ft torque, in a car that weighs a shade over a ton. Power to weight is 379 bhp per tonne.

Robert

The Whistler!

robert
11-06-01, 05:52 PM
>Whistler - can I smell fried clutches??

Wilf, It might smell a bit but boy does it bite... I have a strip twin clutch which is surprisingly light, its great.

> Seriuosly tho' - I didn't know there was a 1/4 mile for our use on
>the track day - it just gets better and better. Hopefully my Crendon
>will be fully run in by then so you might just have some
>competition??? Please please please make sure we get a dry day!!!!

I like to give you guys a good day, that way you come back for more!!!

>
>Wilf (Colonel Clanger) Leek

Oh, the clangers are having a comeback, soon to be back on telly!!!

Robert

The Whistler!

imported_admin
11-06-01, 07:49 PM
Owner built because I never class a factory built as a kit car!
Would u say a tvr is a kit car?
There the same underneath!


I only said those things to wind u up Rob.

Surely if u disc. your blower the fueling/timing would be all wrong?
Or is it injection with a re-mapping facility?

Is yours a fatty two jags or a euro based?

Anyhow maybe we should try a test track with some bends in it eh?

robert
11-06-01, 09:07 PM
>Owner built because I never class a factory built as a kit car!
>Would u say a tvr is a kit car?

Its the same concept, only they only provide turnkey kits.... (I can neither confirm nor deny the previous statement and had no proir knowledge of the fact)

>There the same underneath!
>
>
>I only said those things to wind u up Rob.
>
>Surely if u disc. your blower the fueling/timing would be all wrong?
>Or is it injection with a re-mapping facility?

Because I an running an intercooler, ther is no need for ignition retard or any modifications. Fuel is a Carter mechanical fuel pump, all it does is use the pressure at the carb to boost the fuel pressure coming in. This was one of the reasons that I went for a blower, as if my belt goes, or it breaks, I can still use my GD.

>
>Is yours a fatty two jags or a euro based?

Jag based, we couldn't fit the supercharger to a Euro due to the different chassis configurations.

>
>Anyhow maybe we should try a test track with some bends in it eh?

Bends are more than welcome, I love the twisty turny stuff.

Best Regards


Robert

The Whistler!

David
11-06-01, 09:47 PM
Some-ones got to say it.
ALPHA MALES!!!!!! springs to mind. Yehah.
(sorry Rigman)

wilf
12-06-01, 01:46 PM
Alpha Males??? Isn't that a pre-requisite to build/own a cobra??

Colonel Clanger

imported_admin
13-06-01, 05:55 PM
if you'd have put a 380bhp rover engine in your car it would have
a power to weight ratio of 451 per ton!

imported_admin
13-06-01, 08:29 PM
Next year then lads?

forget the rules i don't care if you built the car or what ever
Leave the blower on!

But (and i'll put money on it) you'll be reaching for :

a: your tissues

b: your wallets

See u soon

Rgds

Roger

robert
13-06-01, 08:55 PM
The Gauntlet has been laid down.....

Robert

The Whistler!

wilf
14-06-01, 09:47 AM
Tissues?? used 'em all up on cut fingers building the car

Wallet?? - see above


Colonel Clanger