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Se7enS1ns
31-07-12, 06:40 PM
Hi All,
I've been lurking round here for a year or so now, but I'm in need of some advise, so peeking out to say hi.

Basically, a rolling Sumo II chassis has come up for sale quite cheaply. It's been stored for quite a long time, but looks ok at first glance. There appear to be a couple of additional brace bars welded in, running from the tops of the frame, to the bulkhead / firewall.

Would this be a good buy, or should I avoid? Are there any issues with the Sumo II chassis that I should be aware of, SVA compliance etc?? What would be a max price to offer on this? Pics below...

2359923600

Any advise much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Dan

KevinW
31-07-12, 06:50 PM
best left, imho, unless you want to spend years crying over this one.

Purple AK
31-07-12, 07:03 PM
Good and Cheap as it might be, Mk2 Granada spares are getting rarer by the day! More importantly you will also need source a lot more from Pilgrim (see earlier posts on customer service)

Se7enS1ns
31-07-12, 07:08 PM
best left, imho, unless you want to spend years crying over this one.

How do you mean? Could the chassis be stripped back to bare and start again with donor parts more readily available, say Jag or Sierra? Or is the chassis just no good "to man nor beast" as my dad would always say??

britbits
31-07-12, 07:50 PM
If you are parting with hard earned readys why??? go get a new chassis from prefered company, and start your build from there ,as and when you afford the parts, (my opinion) your choice. by the way welcome to the club. Regards Dave B

kdavies3
31-07-12, 08:02 PM
It would need to be V cheap I reckon.
Its galvanised by the looks of it so should have held up over the years.
Does a mk3 body fit a mk2 chassis?
How complete is the running gear? as Purple said Granny spares are getting hard to find.
A Granny sumo chassis can only use Granny parts as far as I know.

Se7enS1ns
31-07-12, 08:05 PM
If you are parting with hard earned readys why??? go get a new chassis from prefered company, and start your build from there ,as and when you afford the parts, (my opinion) your choice. by the way welcome to the club. Regards Dave B

Completely agree - I mean, that's the whole point of kit cars isn't it - build as you can afford? The reason for my post really is that this chassis has come up quite cheap, earlier than I intended to start, so if I can save some money at no real detriment, then that money that can be spent elsewhere.

That said, I obviously don't want to waste my money buying something that's no good - so kinda need advise as to any definite reasons to avoid this sale. Would this chassis pose any problems with the current SVA regs, for example? Or are parts for the older chassis particularly difficult / nigh on impossible to source? Sorry for the blatant newb questions by the way, patience much appreciated.

The plan would be, IF I was to buy this chassis, would be to strip it back to bare - and then source a more suitable donor vehicle with the view of going for age related plates and more readily available spares.

Thanks again,
Dan

dgosumo
31-07-12, 08:07 PM
Most important question what are you aiming to build (i.e. engine) and what rear axle is it fitted with (could be Cortina, Granada or Sierra)?

Se7enS1ns
31-07-12, 08:08 PM
A Granny sumo chassis can only use Granny parts as far as I know.

Oh is that so?? I didn't know that - I figured all the mk2 sumo chassis were the same, and suspension components were dependant on the various wishbones available... or along those lines.

I have no idea how complete the running gear currently is, I was viewing for the chassis only really. What would you consider to be "V cheap"?

Se7enS1ns
31-07-12, 08:14 PM
Most important question what are you aiming to build (i.e. engine) and what rear axle is it fitted with (could be Cortina, Granada or Sierra)?

Hi - I'm not sure what rear axle is fitted, but I believe it's a mk2 Granada - not certain though. I suppose ideally, I'd really like to run a Rover SD1 engine, but not sure if this chassis is capable of taking that (?). The chassis comes with an unistalled V6 Ford 2.3 engine, but I dont hold too much hope of that having any life left in it, after been stood for so long.

Purple AK
31-07-12, 08:17 PM
First thing you need to do is contact Pilgrim and see if they still have the moulds for the Mk2 body. A lot of stuff vanished when the previous owner went to the wall! IF you can get a body then you are half way there. But you still need to address the availability of Mk1/2 Granada running gear spares, because nothing else will fit that chassis.

Chimeara
31-07-12, 08:23 PM
That's gonna cost you as much if not more than building a new one would by the time you update everything to suit current requirements. Other than the initial saving everything else will cost the same throughout the build and if you chuck money at this it will not be worth what you put into it when you come to sale.

Best off saving up and visiting AK ( or other companies of your choice) and starting a build from new. Obviously only my opinion but I'd hate to see you throw money away and work hard for no reason.

Se7enS1ns
31-07-12, 08:27 PM
That's gonna cost you as much if not more than building a new one would by the time you update everything to suit current requirements. Other than the initial saving everything else will cost the same throughout the build and if you chuck money at this it will not be worth what you put into it when you come to sale.

Best off saving up and visiting AK ( or other companies of your choice) and starting a build from new. Obviously only my opinion but I'd hate to see you throw money away and work hard for no reason.

Hey - thanks for the reply. This is my main area of concern - not been able to get the chassis through a test. Is there any specific areas of the mk2 chassis that do no comply with current regs?

kdavies3
31-07-12, 08:33 PM
I doubt there's anything on the chassis itself that would be bad for IVA if built correctly. ie clips spacing etc.
Most IVA stuff is external and interior.
Which is all the stuff you'd still have to buy anyway.
My Contemporary chassis is similar to original and Crendon, it was designed in the USA way before IVA or SVA regs.

Chimeara
31-07-12, 08:35 PM
It's not a case of it not passing its just a lot has changed in the last couple of decades and lets just say the mk3 chassis was not upgraded for the sake of it. The chassis rails on the mk2 are much smaller and it's not known for its handling. I personally would be welding in extra bracing and certainly wouldn't be putting a high output engin in it. What you save will soon be lost in what it's worth when finished.

You pay your money you take the chance but honestly that's worth scrap value.

Se7enS1ns
31-07-12, 08:57 PM
Thanks again for the advise.

I'm not concerned with the resale value vs my costs - I've built up a few bare shell rebuilds of "classic" cars, and have never seen anything in the way of profit. I do this hobby for the sheer enjoyment on a personal level, I don't particularly aim to see my money back (as nice as it would be, such is life).

I am however concerned with not being able to finish something I've started due to discontinued or rare as hens teeth parts, or restraints on regulations.

Can I just clarify then - the Mk2 Sumo chassis themselves are still (as this point) SVA compliant?? (dependant on rest of build, obviously).

stu e
31-07-12, 09:24 PM
I SVA'd a MKII Sumo a few years ago, the only real issue was the front to rear braking efficiency, but that was easily solved..
It was a newer version than the one in the pictures, that looks like a very early Granada based MKII.
The MKIII body fits a MKII chassis, you will need narrow rear wheels for the test though.
If you are offered the chassis for the metal scrap value and are very handy with a welder it might be worth thinking about.
If you want to convert it to a RV8 you will need to change the pedal box and steering shaft as well as weld in new engine mounts, the Granny back axle is what the v8's used anyway, but the front is nowhere near as strong as the latter MKII's, and would need a lot of bracing.
If you want a project go for it, but if it was me, I would start with a new chassis.
Stu

Se7enS1ns
31-07-12, 09:40 PM
I've been sent a few more pics of the suspension by the seller. I'm mainly interested in the usability of the chassis itself, but obviously anything salvageable from the current state would be a bonus.

23601236022360323604

Obviously been stood around a while!!

Purple AK
31-07-12, 09:52 PM
First thing you need to do is contact Pilgrim and see if they still have the moulds for the Mk2 body. A lot of stuff vanished when the previous owner went to the wall! IF you can get a body then you are half way there. But you still need to address the availability of Mk1/2 Granada running gear spares, because nothing else will fit that chassis.
Wall and Headache

Se7enS1ns
31-07-12, 10:05 PM
Wall and Headache

Hi - apologies if it seems I've ignored you're advise - I honestly haven't. I do appreciate that this chassis (as you have informed me) will only take early granada parts, and that these are getting more and more difficult to get hold of. Sorry if it seems I was sticking my fingers in my ears.

The pics seem to show that the chassis currently comes fitted with front wishbones / suspension struts and rear diff. I am not sure if there are any rear suspension components fitted. What other Mk1/2 granada running gear donor components would be required?

slogger
31-07-12, 10:07 PM
I've been sent a few more pics of the suspension by the seller. I'm mainly interested in the usability of the chassis itself, but obviously anything salvageable from the current state would be a bonus.



Obviously been stood around a while!!

Dan
Hi and welcome to our corner of the web.

You obviously are taken with the idea of building a Sumo and are developing a very blinkered approach to building the thing. Can I ask how much money you think you will be spending to build your car? Also what do you want to do with it? How much have you got available now to get yourself started? What are you like with a set of spanners and can you fabricate parts and weld?

Answer these questions and allow the very helpful guys to help. Only with this info can any of us stand a chance of helping you.
:D

Purple AK
31-07-12, 10:11 PM
Probably no components would be needed now (dependent on how much the original builder replaced them as he built it) But in the future?????????????? You also need to address whether the chassis comes with a V5 document for the Granada donor!

Se7enS1ns
31-07-12, 10:29 PM
Dan
Hi and welcome to our corner of the web.

You obviously are taken with the idea of building a Sumo and are developing a very blinkered approach to building the thing. Can I ask how much money you think you will be spending to build your car? Also what do you want to do with it? How much have you got available now to get yourself started? What are you like with a set of spanners and can you fabricate parts and weld?

Answer these questions and allow the very helpful guys to help. Only with this info can any of us stand a chance of helping you.
:D

Hello :)
Thankyou for the welcome. I'm not intentionally developing a blinkered or nieve view. My initial post was to ask if there are any issues with the early Mk2 Sumo chassis which would prevent a "completed" car passing a current IVA test. So far, if I've digested the responses correctly, the replies have been "parts are hard to get" and "it'll cost you lots of money". I don't think anyone has given a definitive answer of "no, because the mk2 chassi lacks suffient structural strength to pass the test" or something along those lines. If there is a very legitimate reason to not pursue a build based on a second hand mk2 Granada based Sumo build, I'd obviously take this fully on board.

My current mechanical experience is limited to 15 years of bare shell restorations / rebuilds of around 6 minis to date, from rollcaged pocket rockets to concourse originals (currently own a lovely '78 1275GT). Oh, and about three years of BMX's before that :D My angle iron and box section fabrication skills are amateur at best, but passable - the plus side to working with production cars is that I rarely have to fabricate anything beyond the odd bracket. My mig welding skills are not too shabby if I do say so myself. I have the luxury of having a dry garage to work in, and a respectable ever-growing collection of tools.

I'd rather not get into the finer details as to my savings account, but lets just say I'm under no illusion as to the final build costs, labour time, and resale value (or rather, lack of).

Hope this helps somehow,
Dan

Se7enS1ns
31-07-12, 10:48 PM
Probably no components would be needed now (dependent on how much the original builder replaced them as he built it) But in the future?????????????? You also need to address whether the chassis comes with a V5 document for the Granada donor!

The chassis does not come with with a V5 - I assume this would mean issuing a Q plate?

Purple AK
31-07-12, 10:49 PM
Welcome Dan. I guess you'll have to go with gut feeling on this one. I've tried to give the feedback of 10+ years on here, but heh.........

Se7enS1ns
31-07-12, 11:10 PM
Well, I'm not going to attempt to argue with countless years of experience vs my zero, so due to the overall negative vibe, I think I'm going to pull from the sale.

Shame, I figured it would be worth it for the chassis alone. Still interested as to definite reasons a Mk2 Granada based chassis build cant be done though.

Ah well, back to the original plan. Thanks for all the help :)

slogger
31-07-12, 11:14 PM
The chassis does not come with with a V5 - I assume this would mean issuing a Q plate?

Dan,

Have a good read on here and gain from the wealth of knowledge available. If that chassis was given to you for free you would be making quite a small saving on the total cost of your project.

Wasn't asking for your savings account number, just trying to see where you were with the reality of the costs involved when building one of these cars.

Have a look at this project found on ebay and posted on here today and see what you think!

Dax cobra kit car project with 5.7ltr small block chevy and 5 speed tremec gbox | eBay (http://go.redirectingat.com/?id=11564X695655&site=cobraclub.com&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fitm%2F3209556096 70%3FssPageName%3DSTRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT%26_trksid%3Dp3 984.m1438.l2649%23ht_500wt_1287&xguid=d7a2532c3b46f75f0623e54e99f3be90&xcreo=0&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cobraclub.com%2Fforum%2Fgene ral-cobra-discussion%2F46643-dax-ebay.html)

slogger
31-07-12, 11:20 PM
Well, I'm not going to attempt to argue with countless years of experience vs my zero, so due to the overall negative vibe, I think I'm going to pull from the sale.

Shame, I figured it would be worth it for the chassis alone. Still interested as to definite reasons a Mk2 Granada based chassis build cant be done though.

Ah well, back to the original plan. Thanks for all the help :)

There are no definite reasons why it can't be done! As Chris said, go with the gut feeling on this one. There are just better and more logical reasons why you should spend your hard earned cash on something else that makes more sense, will be worth more and more rewarding in the end.

KevinW
31-07-12, 11:28 PM
How do you mean? Could the chassis be stripped back to bare and start again with donor parts more readily available, say Jag or Sierra? Or is the chassis just no good "to man nor beast" as my dad would always say??

you will need about £12k+ even if you are really scrimping to put a cobra on the road.
the chassis is a tiny fraction - about £1.7k i think atm. so even if this chassis was only a few hundred quid, you just bought yourself a load of heartache stripping it back and re-working it.
... and for what? to build up an inferior chassis.

if you spend another £1k or so it will be clean, ready to go and with sierra bits more easily available, you will have so much more fun during the build.
the mkII had a few issues, which were addressed with the MkIII, which is in a different league handling wise, and your resale value would be significantly enhanced with minor extra outlay i.e. just the difference in chassis price. MkII can take a rover on low bhp but thats it i think. hi power rovers and big chevy's are a no no.

swapping to sierra will not just be a case of swap over the wishbones. at the back you will have a fabrication and geometry job to sort swapping over axles. just seems like a lot of heartache for nothing to me.

btw i think that chassis is missing a front cross-brace.
if it was an abandaoned project with body and lots of items, then that is worth a punt. but given a chassis only with a few odds'n'sods, id leave it.

just my humble... fwiw,

TINKA
31-07-12, 11:31 PM
On reading this thread it would seam that you have been told,

1. the chassis is not strong enough as it is for an American V8 ,
2. the parts for the donor are getting very hard to get hold off,
3. there was a good reason why Pilgrim developed the MK3 chassis,
4. the chassis won’t take anything other than the suspension it is designed for and based on what I have seen of the Sumo it is a big job to try and make something else fit.
5. it will cost you if you are not a good welder to upgrade the chassis to handle a V8’s power,
6. after any welding you will have to do something to seal the chassis again against rust as the galvanizing will have to be removed for any welding,
7. if you take short cuts you will never be able to sell it for any thing like what you have spent on it.

On the plus side you can get it through an IVA if it’s built right, is that really the only thing you are bothered about?


You asked for advice but don’t seam to be listening. Most of us have built cars and speak with some experience.
If you just ask questions and ignore the answers just because they are not what you want to hear eventually you won’t get answers.

Se7enS1ns
31-07-12, 11:37 PM
I think you're right. A clean new chassis from a current production line, designed for use with more readily available donor vehicles would be a much better option, and make for an overall better finished car.

dgosumo
01-08-12, 12:10 AM
On reading this thread it would seam that you have been told,

1. the chassis is not strong enough as it is for an American V8 ,
2. the parts for the donor are getting very hard to get hold off,
3. there was a good reason why Pilgrim developed the MK3 chassis,
4. the chassis won’t take anything other than the suspension it is designed for and based on what I have seen of the Sumo it is a big job to try and make something else fit.
5. it will cost you if you are not a good welder to upgrade the chassis to handle a V8’s power,
6. after any welding you will have to do something to seal the chassis again against rust as the galvanizing will have to be removed for any welding,
7. if you take short cuts you will never be able to sell it for any thing like what you have spent on it.

On the plus side you can get it through an IVA if it’s built right, is that really the only thing you are bothered about?


You asked for advice but don’t seam to be listening. Most of us have built cars and speak with some experience.
If you just ask questions and ignore the answers just because they are not what you want to hear eventually you won’t get answers.

If you really want to go ahead then please take account of what others have said. Sumos are still being built and according to my manual the Granada chassis was designed for v6/Rv8 power, you need to speak to Den to see if the current body fits the old chassis (and I suggest for his advice) and as with most kit cars nothing is usually impossible if you have access to the money, tools, ingenuity and some appropriate help when necessary.

I'd be worried about:
1. Parts - what's missing from the rolling chassis i.e. the hard to get point
2. Body - if one fits
3. IVA - whether the elements that seem a bit more judgmental are OK on the older chassis, for example like the mounting points for the seatbelts, seats etc (though of course with the right tools/help those can usually be fixed)
4. Running gear - Evidence around the age and ownership of the running gear
5. Suspension - I suspect that chassis has the older Cortina front/Granada rear Sumo suspension. If so it's not usually ride-height adjustable which might give you some challenges on the IVA

britbits
01-08-12, 07:12 AM
Dan,

Have a good read on here and gain from the wealth of knowledge available. If that chassis was given to you for free you would be making quite a small saving on the total cost of your project.

Wasn't asking for your savings account number, just trying to see where you were with the reality of the costs involved when building one of these cars.

Have a look at this project found on ebay and posted on here today and see what you think!

Dax cobra kit car project with 5.7ltr small block chevy and 5 speed tremec gbox | eBay (http://go.redirectingat.com/?id=11564X695655&site=cobraclub.com&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fitm%2F3209556096 70%3FssPageName%3DSTRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT%26_trksid%3Dp3 984.m1438.l2649%23ht_500wt_1287&xguid=d7a2532c3b46f75f0623e54e99f3be90&xcreo=0&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cobraclub.com%2Fforum%2Fgene ral-cobra-discussion%2F46643-dax-ebay.html)
thats got to be worth a punt at the price,Dave B

KevinW
01-08-12, 10:55 AM
i agree - that looks like good value to me. you might even get it on the road for the price of a sumo.

britbits
01-08-12, 11:44 AM
i agree - that looks like good value to me. you might even get it on the road for the price of a sumo.

don't tempt me , i have a garage full of projects as it is Dave

Chimeara
03-08-12, 01:46 PM
Have a look at this. It would be far better than the pilgrim and I believe it comes with the chassis although not pictured.

Has nothing to do with me but probably worth a punt. Engine and gearbox mounts may need changing to your needs but that's a lot less welding than the pilgrim would require.
Dax Ac Cobra Shell And Chassis | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dax-Ac-Cobra-Shell-And-Chassis-/271029270910?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f1a9a797e)

Se7enS1ns
03-08-12, 04:18 PM
Have a look at this. It would be far better than the pilgrim and I believe it comes with the chassis although not pictured.

Has nothing to do with me but probably worth a punt. Engine and gearbox mounts may need changing to your needs but that's a lot less welding than the pilgrim would require.
Dax Ac Cobra Shell And Chassis | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dax-Ac-Cobra-Shell-And-Chassis-/271029270910?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item3f1a9a797e)

Good spot!

Thanks for all replies on the other chassis - I decided to give it a miss :)

dgosumo
03-08-12, 05:06 PM
This is the one that was on Ebay isn't it? If so says it's sold - did someone here buy it?

Se7enS1ns
04-08-12, 08:03 PM
Yeah it was on ebay but the seller started emailing people who had messaged him, asking for their best offer. I declined to offer after the advice above - he emailed me back to say "last chance, I've had an offer of £600".

kdavies3
05-08-12, 09:05 AM
That's an old Dax chassis as it has no back bone brace.
Probably would need the steering geometry mods that were on later cars too.
Dax can supply the parts to do both i think.