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Paul Jarrett
29-02-16, 07:45 PM
Tyres!! and white letters!

So............. Goodyear billboards would be the fave but they are illegal in the UK for road use, and whilst fake letters sold by this company looks good I don't really want to stick stuff on my tyres!!

http://www.tyrelettersaustralasia.com/#!muscle-series/c1nun

Don't want stencils....but for those that do there are http://www.racelinedigital.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6_150_151&products_id=1958

Therefore, are my only options

a) Cobra Radial G/T's http://www.coopertire.co.uk/tyres/high-performance-cars/summer/cobra-radial-gt

or

b) Goodrich Radials

http://www.mytyres.co.uk/cgi-bin/rshop.pl?dsco=110&typ=R-257885&partner=1&ID=froogle

Not as good as Avon CR66zz's but they don't come with letters.

Any thoughts ??

Paul

KevinW
29-02-16, 07:52 PM
Wrong speed rating.
Its only a few square inches of inflated rubber that keeps you where you want, or dead in a ditch with your passenger.
Is £500 more such a high price to pay?

But its your life, (and your passengers), and your (non-existent) insurance policy.

You did ask.

Paul Jarrett
29-02-16, 08:13 PM
Hi Kevin

I did ask!

I will not however, be doing more than 80 mph and do not plan to do track days!!

Is there a real danger issue therefore? And will this actually make my insurance non existent?

If I need to pay £500 more for Avon's then so be it, but surely not all people driving cobras are running Avons?

simon finlay
29-02-16, 08:25 PM
I don't understand why you don't wanpnt to use stencils? If you were to go Billboards this is exactly what you would get, the letters are sprayed on through a stencil, they are not raised and painted. If you got the Avons they have very little in the way of mounded markings on the sidewalk and you could use the Goodyear stencils and have the effect you are after and a bloody good tyre, a better compromise than you safety????

corn plaster
29-02-16, 09:15 PM
Why pay lots of money for a Cobra ( or any car, especially a fast powerful one ) and use cheap under rated tyres.

Safety first.

KevinW
01-03-16, 01:31 AM
basically, what the above 2 guys have said.

You will not find anyone, anywhere, slagging off Avons - believe me, I have looked. The only issue is the price.
...and you say no more than 80 mph? hmmm ;) wait till you try it. I can only guess you are fitting a permanent speed limiter? :-P

... and does this really look so bad?

http://www.clubcobra.com/photopost/data/500/Avon_Tyres_1.JPG

If none of that appeals, my humble suggestion is that you save your cash and get a Pilgrim Sumo with an old Ford Pinto. There are a few around, going cheap.
All the looks of a cobra, none of the big hp worries!

lutman
01-03-16, 05:05 AM
Hi Kevin

I did ask!

I will not however, be doing more than 80 mph and do not plan to do track days!!

Is there a real danger issue therefore? And will this actually make my insurance non existent?

If I need to pay £500 more for Avon's then so be it, but surely not all people driving cobras are running Avons?
I thought the insurance validity was one of IVA/MOT requirement and not the actual speed limits imposed by MoT - otherwise why would the IVA even be asking for a rating to match what could be the cars possible performance - that is you put in a high bhp motor with a 180mph speedo - the IVA expects you to install a high rated tyre. That is what the insurance will look for if there is any claim ? Hence a tyre not rated for the cars max potential will probably be a decline on any insurance claim ?

AlexB74
01-03-16, 10:08 AM
Yes the speed rating is meant for a much heavier car than a cobra (look at the load rating), and designed to run the heavier car, at the speed stated for a long period of time. So you'll be fine.

Probably.

No cooper cobra and BF Goodrich are not good tyres - but yes, these are what most people run these on their cobras rather cr6zz's. Whats worse is most people run these tyres and keep them on the car for 10+ years by which point they become made of something that looks like rubber with plenty of tread but grips like baby oil on granite.

Your options will be limited by the size of rims on the car & also the kit. If it were me, I'd wait till you buy one before worrying about it.

Alex

Firestarter29
01-03-16, 10:23 AM
grips like baby oil on granite.



Sounds interesting Alex, what websites have you been visiting ?? ;) :o

Can't disagree with the sentiments about BF Goodrich - beware of buying the right size BFGs and then finding them stamped M+S for Mud and Snow !!

corn plaster
01-03-16, 10:24 AM
There is also the option of remoulds / retreads :-)

route66
01-03-16, 10:28 AM
The argument "I'm not going to drive faster than 80 mph" is invalid from an insurers perspective. Otherwise every Aston Martin DB9 or Porsche 911 sold new from the factory would have S rated tyres fitted.

AlexB74
01-03-16, 10:32 AM
[QUOTE=Firestarter29;542069]Sounds interesting Alex, what websites have you been visiting ?? ;) :o

I keep on clicking on the links that you send me... I wouldn't mind but those farm animals didn't look happy to me.

Neil O
02-03-16, 12:10 PM
Paul, I find it hard to comprehend why your choice of tyre for your high performance car is based on whether or not they have white letters on the side.
I surmise from what you are saying that you have in mind a car with 15" diameter wheels? If so the only real choice (even then it's a compromise) are the Avons in my opinion.
Also, maybe you should forget about your max speed being 80mph (you jest, surely) and think about how you're going to get to that speed.
Good, safe tyres work all the way through your speed range including the accelerating phase. I would suggest that your enjoyment of your car will be seriously diminished if you take 20 seconds to get to 80mph because you have no grip from your pretty, but frankly useless tyres. Then there's the tracking/wandering/white lining that comes with crappy rubber.......
Just my thoughts. Don't want to see you stuck halfway up a tree.

AlexB74
02-03-16, 12:38 PM
Just my thoughts. Don't want to see you stuck halfway up a tree.

to be fair though...people who build 452ci big block cobras are probably more nervous than most about tyres/hitting trees :)

bigblock427
02-03-16, 04:48 PM
So............. Goodyear billboards would be the fave but they are illegal in the UK for road use
Paul

I am not sure if that is actually true.

The construction and use Regs state only that the tyre must be fit for purpose. In general that means that it has sufficient tread, is not damaged and is correctly inflated. It also has to match the capabilities of the vehicle regarding load and speed rating.

If Goodyear were able to provide a spec sheet which stated the service description of the tyre regarding load and speed index and your Cobra did not exceed those ratings, then I think it would be legal to use on the road.

Obviously the IVA test and your insurer may have different criteria but as far as 'being fit for purpose' regarding the construction and use regulation I think you would be OK . I may be slightly biased having done a fair bit of mileage on a set of Goodyear Bluestreaks :D

Neil O
02-03-16, 04:59 PM
to be fair though...people who build 452ci big block cobras are probably more nervous than most about tyres/hitting trees :)

True, but I have also owned a Dax 350ci and still swapped the Khumo tyres for Michelin Pilot Sports before they were worn out.
Shit tyres are shit tyres whatever car you drive.... ;-)

Doug, you are correct. Avon say they are road legal.
http://www.avonmotorsport.com/historic/historic/cr6zz

Paul Jarrett
02-03-16, 06:32 PM
Ok everyone I get the point!

(and yes I imagine I may to wish to drive just a bit faster than 80mph at times)

corn plaster
02-03-16, 08:04 PM
Over 70mph,obviously not on Her Majesties Highways;)

Happy Jim
02-03-16, 08:23 PM
Ok everyone I get the point!

(and yes I imagine I may to wish to drive just a bit faster than 80mph at times)

No no no, we can be far more sanctimonious than that, give us a bit more time :-)

Paul Jarrett
02-03-16, 08:30 PM
Jesus! I assume this guy has some serious rubber as he is giving it fully welly in his Cobra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eA8lPjEij0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eA8lPjEij0)

nuf_said
03-03-16, 04:14 AM
Jesus! I assume this guy has some serious rubber as he is giving it fully welly in his Cobra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eA8lPjEij0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eA8lPjEij0)
According to the comments below the video - Dart 427 stroker with 600hp on Nitro Drag radials. 0 to 60 in 3.1 secs. Yet he still can't figure why they stitch the sun visor on to the back of his hat.....
Nuf Said

AlexB74
03-03-16, 02:17 PM
From the horses mouth on tyre speed ratings...

I happen to share an office with a nice bunch of insurance brokers (mainly commercial, but some private client & motor as well) - very good they are too.

When asked about loss adjusters view on tyre ratings - "its just not relevant" - maybe they might be interested in whether the car passed an MOT, did the tyres have tread, is it correctly registered (really only if the loss adjuster was feeling really picky), was the owner driving like a loony prior to the crash. But speed ratings.. they don't care.

MOT testing rules surprisingly dont care about that much either - here's what the manual says http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_410.htm Just to be clear, being insured might be cold comfort if you end up lying in a ditch upside down due to crap tyres... but still, interesting to know.

Alex

tonym
03-03-16, 03:06 PM
That's interesting but I'll put forward a different view. I do some work for a garage that recovers and stores accident vehicles. The ones they recover have to stay in a very secure unit until the police release them or have inspected them. The first thing, apparently, the police check are the tyres! Now let's say, hypothetically, that you have an accident by crashing into a bus, there are multiple insurance claims and after inspecting the car the police say the tyres are unfit for the car, do you think the insurance company will ignore it then?
Spend the extra, get the"correct" tyres and stencil them if you must!

Neil O
03-03-16, 05:10 PM
Just to clarify.....white lettered tyres are as gay as Cobra roofs, power steering and yellow high back bucket seats.
;)

Mitch
03-03-16, 09:39 PM
I'm currently restoring my 89/90 Dax, it has 15 inch rims and I prefer the original Cobra look.
To buy a set of Avons is about £1500, depending on tyre size you can get a set that looks ok from about £300.
If I were building a new cobra with excess of 350 bhp, I wouldn't hesitate to get the best tyre available.
I cannot justify a set of Avons for my old Dax as yet - you haven't seen the lane I have to drive down to get to a decent piece of tarmac.
You may even see gay white lettering on them.
If you find me upside down in a ditch or half way up a tree, I take it all back.

Eggbert
03-03-16, 10:43 PM
Well Mitch,... I agree to some extent, ..mostly in fact, and I certainly don't agree with that "why spend a lot of money on a cobra and then put cheap tires on it". I use BFG T/A's that were new back around 1996. I won't argue a case for them based on performance. They are what they are and I'm OK with that.

All tires will lose grip if pushed hard enough. For example, I'd rather lose grip and slide of a corner at a BFG speed of 40 mph than a Avon speed of 60 mph. Obviously there's a flaw in that logic, but yet, it does make a point to consider.... a bit of merit that can't be denied.

I do wonder about the number of people who say BFG is dangerous... how many of them have actually ever used them?

And if all those touting Avons actually owned them, the cost per tire would likely be lower as Avon sales would be high.

A lot of stuff on the internet is repeated because it seems to make sense, but is often not quantified or perhaps presented in a light not considerate of all the facts.

I admit to needing new tires due to their age (wear is non-existent at a bit over 7000 miles), but I'll probably buy BFG's again. It is, after all, a point-and-squirt machine.

So don't be quilted into "you need the best or your screwed" logic. Just adjust your driving to the limits your tires possess. And for most of us street drivers, that's not hard to do and still have fun.



ps: ...and to keep things in perspective, I'm just back from a family gathering and I may have had a bit more to drink than I should have...

aaronjb
03-03-16, 11:29 PM
So these Avons that are completely road legal etc..


Note
The Avon CR6ZZ is EXEMPT from the EU tyre labeling regulation EC1222/2009 because, The tyre is designed to be fitted only to vehicles registered for the first time before 1 October 1990. View the Exemption label (http://www.avonmotorsport.com/sites/default/files/Exempt-TW1022-EU.jpg).

I wonder if that affects the insurance/police aspects, or if they're E marked and therefore fine?

AlexB74
03-03-16, 11:43 PM
I had old bfg's on the front of mine. Replaced with good rubber the difference was night and day.

If it's not your thing I get it. But It's not cornering and acceleration that really matters. It's braking distance that will kill.

Use bfg's if you must.

But 20 year old tyres??

Wow.

Alex

KevinW
04-03-16, 03:53 AM
Well Mitch,... I agree to some extent, ..mostly in fact, and I certainly don't agree with that "why spend a lot of money on a cobra and then put cheap tires on it". I use BFG T/A's that were new back around 1996. I won't argue a case for them based on performance. They are what they are and I'm OK with that.

All tires will lose grip if pushed hard enough. For example, I'd rather lose grip and slide of a corner at a BFG speed of 40 mph than a Avon speed of 60 mph. Obviously there's a flaw in that logic, but yet, it does make a point to consider.... a bit of merit that can't be denied.

I do wonder about the number of people who say BFG is dangerous... how many of them have actually ever used them?

And if all those touting Avons actually owned them, the cost per tire would likely be lower as Avon sales would be high.

A lot of stuff on the internet is repeated because it seems to make sense, but is often not quantified or perhaps presented in a light not considerate of all the facts.

I admit to needing new tires due to their age (wear is non-existent at a bit over 7000 miles), but I'll probably buy BFG's again. It is, after all, a point-and-squirt machine.

So don't be quilted into "you need the best or your screwed" logic. Just adjust your driving to the limits your tires possess. And for most of us street drivers, that's not hard to do and still have fun.



ps: ...and to keep things in perspective, I'm just back from a family gathering and I may have had a bit more to drink than I should have...

Hi John,

The difference with this side of the pond is that or tyres are required to comply with the vehicle's capability. Since the US introduced lower speed limits of 56 and 60pmh, i believe the tyre manufacturers revised their speed ratings, but those are the speed ratings we are stuck with. There are very few 15" tyres this side of the pond with adequate speed rating. The other thing is that the Avons are, by all accounts bar none, an excellent tyre. I'll be buying a set in the next few months.

tonym
04-03-16, 05:06 AM
So these Avons that are completely road legal etc..



I wonder if that affects the insurance/police aspects, or if they're E marked and therefore fine?[/FONT][/COLOR]

So are they legal if your car was registered AFTER October 1990, which, I imagine, most cobras are?

corn plaster
04-03-16, 06:06 AM
Avon site says they are designed to be fitted to cars registered before 01 October 1990. Doesn't say they can't be fitted on later cars, abit of a grey area.


Andy

Eggbert
04-03-16, 01:41 PM
To the OP; you might find this thread interesting (particularly post 23 :) ). Although it is about BFGs, the interest may be more about the effect tire choices make, which appears for the most part has been based on driver perception as there isn't much quantitative data for our cars... in fact none that I could find.

http://www.cobraclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53626


Hi John,

The difference with this side of the pond is that or tyres are required to comply with the vehicle's capability. Since the US introduced lower speed limits of 56 and 60pmh, i believe the tyre manufacturers revised their speed ratings, but those are the speed ratings we are stuck with. There are very few 15" tyres this side of the pond with adequate speed rating. The other thing is that the Avons are, by all accounts bar none, an excellent tyre. I'll be buying a set in the next few months.

I do find some of the IVA testing posts quite interesting. It does appear that some of the reasons for failure appear to be nit-picking, but at least you have a defined set of standards to meet which hopefully can only be slightly interpreted in a negative way by the Inspectors. Here the requirements are not laid down and the approval process varies greatly from province to province.

On tires, I think the only requirement is that they be marked "DOT Approved", although I am not certain of this.

As my tires are very old now, I really do need to replace them. In fact, I've been in a quandary for some time about which tire to purchase. I trust you will report back and give us your impression once you have the Avons on your car.


But It's not cornering and acceleration that really matters. It's braking distance that will kill.

Interesting. I hadn't thought about braking. I take it you are implying that the better grip of Avons will keep the tires from locking up (which reduces stopping distances) vs a tire with less traction? My non-power assist braking system does need modification. I've been researching multi-piston calipers and more effective brake pads for that purpose. At present, I cannot lock the wheels with the braking system. Not that I'd want to in an emergency situation, but being able to indicates the system is sufficient. So at this point in time my tires are not the limiting factor for my braking effectiveness. However, for others you make a good point.

(Oddly enough, the problem may be the DOT 5 fluid which apparently gives some sponginess to the pedal and I do admit I could push harder but it feels like I'm going to brake the pedal... maybe it's just a false feeling due to the nature of the fluid?)

Neil O
04-03-16, 02:04 PM
So......if your brakes don't work very well, you don't need decent tyres....?

lol :-)

AlexB74
04-03-16, 02:32 PM
Hi John,

Yes exactly that. I make a point of emergency stop testing any vehicle I plan on driving for a while - old BFG's were scary. But I always had enough braking power to lock them up - even with drum brakes on the rear, and two pot capri calipers on the front.

In terms of pedal feel/confidence - before going multi pot, I'd guess you could look at... putting a brake balance valve in (front/rear), brake fluid (very hydroscopic - doesnt take much for it to 'go off'), pads (soft pads with light car), change master cylinder ratio, maybe chassis bracing (Mine felt a lot better with some extra support at the front - I guess the flex was changing the geometry) - failing that the dreaded bumpsteer!

Modern rubber now means stopping I can stop hard it actually hurts!

Alex

Eggbert
04-03-16, 02:49 PM
So......if your brakes don't work very well, you don't need decent tyres....?

lol :-)

Exactly! LOL. Of course you know I meant "for now" as I intend to improve the brakes.


Hi John,

Yes exactly that. I make a point of emergency stop testing any vehicle I plan on driving for a while - old BFG's were scary. But I always had enough braking power to lock them up - even with drum brakes on the rear, and two pot capri calipers on the front.

In terms of pedal feel/confidence - before going multi pot, I'd guess you could look at... putting a brake balance valve in (front/rear), brake fluid (very hydroscopic - doesnt take much for it to 'go off'), pads (soft pads with light car), change master cylinder ratio, maybe chassis bracing (Mine felt a lot better with some extra support at the front - I guess the flex was changing the geometry) - failing that the dreaded bumpsteer!

Modern rubber now means stopping I can stop hard it actually hurts!

Alex

I'm using a Jag rear with inboard discs, GM Camaro front brakes. Shouldn't be too hard to improve the front.

Back on topic, there are other choices of tires out there, such as Mickey Thompson, that seem to be well thought of on a Cobra. Odd that I havn't been able to find some braking distance tests and skid-pad tests to help quantify how much better some tires can be. If anyone stumbles across some actual testing, I'd be very interested if they'd be so kind as to post a link.

zaidesmail
04-03-16, 07:22 PM
any issues with the michelin pilot super sport, seem like a good tyre and dont seem too expensive?

Paul Jarrett
04-03-16, 07:35 PM
To the OP; you might find this thread interesting (particularly post 23 :) ). Although it is about BFGs, the interest may be more about the effect tire choices make, which appears for the most part has been based on driver perception as there isn't much quantitative data for our cars... in fact none that I could find.

http://www.cobraclub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53626



I do find some of the IVA testing posts quite interesting. It does appear that some of the reasons for failure appear to be nit-picking, but at least you have a defined set of standards to meet which hopefully can only be slightly interpreted in a negative way by the Inspectors. Here the requirements are not laid down and the approval process varies greatly from province to province.

On tires, I think the only requirement is that they be marked "DOT Approved", although I am not certain of this.

As my tires are very old now, I really do need to replace them. In fact, I've been in a quandary for some time about which tire to purchase. I trust you will report back and give us your impression once you have the Avons on your car.



Interesting. I hadn't thought about braking. I take it you are implying that the better grip of Avons will keep the tires from locking up (which reduces stopping distances) vs a tire with less traction? My non-power assist braking system does need modification. I've been researching multi-piston calipers and more effective brake pads for that purpose. At present, I cannot lock the wheels with the braking system. Not that I'd want to in an emergency situation, but being able to indicates the system is sufficient. So at this point in time my tires are not the limiting factor for my braking effectiveness. However, for others you make a good point.

(Oddly enough, the problem may be the DOT 5 fluid which apparently gives some sponginess to the pedal and I do admit I could push harder but it feels like I'm going to brake the pedal... maybe it's just a false feeling due to the nature of the fluid?)

This was a very interesting thread! Thanks. Paul

corn plaster
04-03-16, 08:00 PM
Michelin super sport have good feedback on here.


Andy

TFatC
11-03-16, 08:27 PM
When I bought mine, it had 10 year old P6000s on the front and P7s on the back. In the dry it was quite frankly scary, and verging on undriveable in the wet. Keeping it heading in the direction I wanted to go in and stopping once there were almost always optional! I replaced them with ZZRs (mine are 15") and the difference is night and day. Only downside is the rears are half worn after 4k miles, but nothing else will go on my Cobra in my ownership. I hope to get more miles from them now I am doing Aberdeen-Le Mans twice a year or more, as wear does not seem to be nearly so bad on motorways (there's a surprise!) but expect this summer will be their last.

tapped
12-03-16, 08:56 AM
So these Avons that are completely road legal etc..



I wonder if that affects the insurance/police aspects, or if they're E marked and therefore fine?[/FONT][/COLOR]

EU tyre labelling is intended for customers to make an informed choice in only three areas: economy wet grip and noise. It is not independently assessed and so for comparative purposes is a complete waste of time

The manufacturer is free to apply whatever ratings they wish AFAIK. Really helpful when comparing brand to brand never kind ones from within their own range. Go figure!

The fact that the AVONs do not need to comply with this is irrelevant.

Irrespective of obvious MOT impacts, I believe the billboards have "not for highway use" written on them which might raise eyebrows in the event of an accident, never mind the fact that I am told they are not very pleasant on the road.

Tyres are incredibly involved in the dynamics of the vehicle, it's much more than propensity to lock up in hard braking or ultimate grip on a dry bend. Breakaway behaviour near the limit of adhesion and how they behave under weight transfer can quite easily spoil or ruin a car that is well set up otherwise.

If you get 15" diameter wheels in the right width then I suspect beating the Avons will be tricky. If 16" then I'd swing for Michelin Pilot Sport but as I found out, in a large rear width they are extremely pricey.

If in more conventional/modern sizing the Conti Sport Contact 5 seems the well regarded sports tyre this year

tapped
12-03-16, 09:10 AM
But It's not cornering and acceleration that really matters. It's braking distance that will kill

Alex

With respect Alex that is absolute nonsense...limit handling behaviour on a fast bend particularly with a large heavy engine and RWD is adequately capable of killing most humans, especially in a car with a bit of GRP, a couple of small steel tubes and some fresh air between you and the tree/concrete bridge support/ditch/HGV.

I imagine a significant percentage of cobra owners lack the talent to get out of such a scenario too, (I'm certainly rusty on limit handling training nowadays) especially if said tyres were unpredictable on the limit...

tapped
12-03-16, 09:14 AM
Paul, I take it the tyres fitted to your 996 turbo weren't chosen based on similar criteria???

I'd be amazed that you are still alive had that been the case :-D

Eggbert
12-03-16, 11:37 PM
Although I do tend to play Devil's Advocate a bit when it comes to Avon tires, I am currently investigating alternatives to my aging BFGs. There isn't much in 15" sizes, but Mickey Thompson S/R's are looking good. For those of you who use larger rim sizes, there appears to be quite a lot more to choose, many with lots of strong recommendations.

There appears to be a lot to picking the right tire:

Here's a Problem:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYRN70r7Zrc

Here's a solution (and I suspect one gone horribly wrong... ) :

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t69/EggbertPhotos/CobraMisc/FatCobra_zpsu3t58evs.jpg

AlexB74
18-03-16, 03:06 PM
With respect Alex that is absolute nonsense...limit handling behaviour on a fast bend particularly with a large heavy engine and RWD is adequately capable of killing most humans, especially in a car with a bit of GRP, a couple of small steel tubes and some fresh air between you and the tree/concrete bridge support/ditch/HGV.

I imagine a significant percentage of cobra owners lack the talent to get out of such a scenario too, (I'm certainly rusty on limit handling training nowadays) especially if said tyres were unpredictable on the limit...

Perhaps I wasnt clear... an average driver with a driving license should be capable of driving a terrible old heap, with terrible tyres, that is still up to MOT pass standards within its limits on the road - regardless of what those limits are.

If you cant then you shouldn't drive.

However - IMHO - emergency braking (not cornering speed or rapid acceleration times - which is the fun bit that people like us pay extra for!) - is to me where a decent tyre, properly set up handling, driver training, track days etc becomes worth their value and will save lives.

Alex

zaidesmail
24-03-16, 08:33 PM
Has anyone fitted 15s to Ak gen 2, will it fit over the calipers?

Roger Shackleton
24-03-16, 08:44 PM
I dont think they will even using the standard Jag callipers.

Rog


Has anyone fitted 15s to Ak gen 2, will it fit over the calipers?

Firestarter29
30-03-16, 01:44 PM
Alex, you have a PM :)

lutman
31-03-16, 09:20 AM
Perhaps I wasnt clear... an average driver with a driving license should be capable of driving a terrible old heap, with terrible tyres, that is still up to MOT pass standards within its limits on the road - regardless of what those limits are.

If you cant then you shouldn't drive.

However - IMHO - emergency braking (not cornering speed or rapid acceleration times - which is the fun bit that people like us pay extra for!) - is to me where a decent tyre, properly set up handling, driver training, track days etc becomes worth their value and will save lives.

Alex

If I may add to the comments - incidents are usually due to failure of parts or failure of the operator to adhere to the equipment limitations and his/her training in the use of the equipment - in that could also read experience ? so track days and similar with an instructor do help - but not if the driver still thinks what he learnt on a dry track still the same on a wet country lane where a recent slurry spillage occurred - I hear many say - well that's obvious - but how many have been to a track day or race day and seen people race off down the road doing a "Sterling Moss" with inappropriate conditions. The car is only as good as the sum of the parts and that includes the operator ! I would hesitate to not install best tyres/brakes when I may have spent a fortune on a big block power unit !

corn plaster
31-03-16, 10:43 AM
When i went for a Supercar type of day around Thruxton i did quite well in a Porsche etc.All the cars had all the bells and whistles,traction control,anti skid,abs etc and they went round the corners well. Much slower than the instructors but it felt fast to me with my limited driving skills. Could or would i be able to go round the corners as fast in my Chevy powered Dax,no chance and i have got Toyos so no cheap tyres. I know my limitations in my Dax,but a modern powerful tin top with all the bells and whistles can give a false sense of good driving skills well above the drivers ability . Much prefer to be out in my Dax than a modern car even with it limitations .

lutman
03-04-16, 09:19 AM
When i went for a Supercar type of day around Thruxton i did quite well in a Porsche etc.All the cars had all the bells and whistles,traction control,anti skid,abs etc and they went round the corners well. Much slower than the instructors but it felt fast to me with my limited driving skills. Could or would i be able to go round the corners as fast in my Chevy powered Dax,no chance and i have got Toyos so no cheap tyres. I know my limitations in my Dax,but a modern powerful tin top with all the bells and whistles can give a false sense of good driving skills well above the drivers ability . Much prefer to be out in my Dax than a modern car even with it limitations .
Wife bought me a drive experience in Abu Dhabi - taking a brand new Merc GT-S around the Yas Island circuit - Love that woman - Back on track now (pun intended) what it did highlight to me was very similar to what was mentioned. Ability of the car x Ability of the driver (in my case I had an instructor sat with me for the complete time) is what determines a safe drive. Fast is only great when you feel comfortable - otherwise it becomes panic - modern car with modern tyres in a relatively safe environment is great fun.
Would I push my Cobra into the corners the same speeds - no ! Mercs brakes and paddle shift gearbox were far superior to what I have in the Cobra. Limitations is the key word - know yours and the car you are driving for max pleasure. PS - if you get a chance to try it at Yas Island - go for it - best 20 mins ever !! - OOps sorry darling best 20 mins without you ever !!

TINKA
03-04-16, 10:35 AM
When i went for a Supercar type of day around Thruxton i did quite well in a Porsche etc.All the cars had all the bells and whistles,traction control,anti skid,abs etc and they went round the corners well. Much slower than the instructors but it felt fast to me with my limited driving skills. Could or would i be able to go round the corners as fast in my Chevy powered Dax,no chance and i have got Toyos so no cheap tyres. I know my limitations in my Dax,but a modern powerful tin top with all the bells and whistles can give a false sense of good driving skills well above the drivers ability . Much prefer to be out in my Dax than a modern car even with it limitations .






Wife bought me a drive experience in Abu Dhabi - taking a brand new Merc GT-S around the Yas Island circuit - Love that woman - Back on track now (pun intended) what it did highlight to me was very similar to what was mentioned. Ability of the car x Ability of the driver (in my case I had an instructor sat with me for the complete time) is what determines a safe drive. Fast is only great when you feel comfortable - otherwise it becomes panic - modern car with modern tyres in a relatively safe environment is great fun.
Would I push my Cobra into the corners the same speeds - no ! Mercs brakes and paddle shift gearbox were far superior to what I have in the Cobra. Limitations is the key word - know yours and the car you are driving for max pleasure. PS - if you get a chance to try it at Yas Island - go for it - best 20 mins ever !! - OOps sorry darling best 20 mins without you ever !!


I agree with both of you but the other thing to consider is that the surface condition of the tarmac on a race track is really good whereas the state of the road's in this country are not and they are not free from things being on them that shouldn't be there like oil, gravel, stones and all sorts of other rubbish.

Eggbert
03-04-16, 12:22 PM
Along with soft sticky rubber, one would think that tread pattern and sidewall flexibility must also play a factor in making the "best choice". As mentioned, road conditions and driver ability are major influences on safety. Where a super sticky tire may play an advantage outside these influences, is during an accident avoidance situation. As there is so little information on tire testing concerning our cars, it makes me wonder how narrow the extra margin of safety, stickier tires will give you. At some point any tire will lose its grip.

However, some people like this in spirited driving. Many years ago, I spoke to a sports-car enthusiast who absolutely detested radial tires. He didn't like the way a radial "suddenly broke loose" and preferred bias-ply instead. He claimed bias-ply allowed him to drift around (asphalt) corners predictably. So there's the other end of the argument... a tire that exhibits gradual grip loss giving the driver a better chance to control his car.

Personally, I don't agree with this, however I'm a more prudent driver and don't think it terribly responsible to drift around corners of public roads. Mind you, when I was younger I did push things a lot more and when I heard those Michelin X's squeal around a corner, I knew I was on the ragged edge.

During my tire research on the net, I did find this amusing picture, which is what reminded me of that bias-ply aficionado:

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t69/EggbertPhotos/CobraTires/RADIALS_ART_zpszfjyx9ua.jpg