PDA

View Full Version : IVA Failed



KevinW
14-07-18, 09:25 AM
Just to let you know I predictably failed IVA at Gillingham earlier this week.
There is a long list of fails, mostly in the minor electrical category, and mainly my own fault with lack of preparation.

However, I thought it may be useful to let you know a few 'oddities' that I was unprepared for:

1. Dashboard telltale stickers - I bought the CarBuilder Solutions sheet and labelled all my switches and tell tales. These were deemed temporary in an open top car, and therefore: Fail.
2. Aston Fuel cap failed as the roller catch deemed too high. I know these have passed at many other IVA test centre so annoyed about this.
3. VIN plate had the words 'Crendon Replicas, England' : England deemed inadmissable content, so VIN plate failed.

String
14-07-18, 09:32 AM
Thanks for posting this Kevin. Best of luck with your retest.

legend
14-07-18, 12:52 PM
Hopefully not long mate

AndyM
14-07-18, 01:51 PM
Hi Kevin, mine also failed recently at Kidderminster on your point 3. Although mine was on an AK VIN plate, the factory have provided me with a replacement. Point 2 also prompted about 20 mins of checking and measuring at my test. I have an Aston filler from Brasscraft. The tester called another chap for a second opinion and evetually they seemed content to let it go. Because it passed I didn't question what the concern was but it seemed to revolve around the height.

Good luck with your Retest...

Bigblock
14-07-18, 02:14 PM
Nearly there Kev, keep going.
The stickers seems strange, they think they might blow off in the wind ? what's the solution the engraved type ?

Cheers

David

Highlander
14-07-18, 05:47 PM
Hi Kev, sad news but a relatively short list of things to do for your retest, so try to look on the bright side.

Out of interest, how high is your filler cap from the body?

KevinW
14-07-18, 10:58 PM
Filler cap was the standard one as supplied by Brasscraft. Yup, loads have passed with it, so pissed off that that was a fail. Dunno how high, but the measurement was claimed to be over the 25mm allowed. Ofcourse others have taken a ruler across the filler cap recess, as this represents the actual body line and measured the height from there, then all OK.

Stickers claimed to be temporary as moisture and rain would make them peel off in an open top car apparently. If it was a covered car like a GT40, then all OK apparently. Anthony will kindly provide me with a new instrument binnacle blank, so its hassle, but fixable without too much trouble I think.

There is a much, much longer list than the above, and most of these were fair cops - I was inadequately prepared (reverse light decided to fail on test, but was on and off at various other points, the brake lights failed, tacho failed, all having been fine 24 hour earlier - so these were my fault. But there were also quite a few where i felt I was also being hung out to dry.

Another one that caught me was needing to prove the L-shaped bends on the filler pipe were suitable for fuel. Had everything lined up for the tank to carb feed, but wasn't expecting filler pipe to be an issue as its not submerged in fuel all the time. Be happy to get here suggestions on that one.

KevinW
14-07-18, 10:59 PM
<errror: duplicate post>

aaronjb
15-07-18, 07:11 PM
Crikey, I didn't expect you to have a long list of fail points :( Does sound like you had a very hard time of it, though!

On the fuel filler pipe .. I worried about the same, and when I asked at Stoneleigh the sellers said "Oh, nobody ever needs proof for filler pipe!" - well, I guess that's been proven wrong.

Not that I want to rub salt in your wounds, but I'd be interested in what the other fail points were?

KevinW
15-07-18, 08:16 PM
multiple electrical issues with lights etc - all working the day before...turned up, and stuff gave up.
needed a white tell tale for the reverse light - i'd used a lucas flick switch
main beam tell tale not bright enough
forgot to put a brake fluid sticker on the master cylinder
couldn't find the engine age on the block to match with the certificate i had - found it now!!
tester used incorrect ball on front aperture (didnt know that then, I do now), so mesh or more bars across the front needed.
back brakes failed on a whisker - told to find somewhere legal to bed them in
failed on noise (I knew this was likely)
wiring loose around starter motor and under drivers footwell
main beam too high
seat belts - massive fuck off spreader plates needed underneath. These won't do, apparently:
https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/spreader-plate-7-16-unf-wil-plt

This pissed me off as they were good enough for the sumo at sva, in fact told that was good work, and the crendon floor is thicker. And apparently the new massive plates have to have a folded edge so they are L-shaped, and the perimeter has got to be radiussed.

All the electrical/loom items were a fair cop as, due to work, i didnt have the time to carefully check over lots of things i'd wanted to do. Still dont know why the lights gave up as they did, again, fair cop.
The rest....well....i was hung out to dry.

btw I rated the CBS car stickers as 2 stars and added in my review on their website said id failed iva at gillingham using these.
As of 15/07/18, looks like they haven't 'approved' my review.

Clive
15-07-18, 11:47 PM
Just a thought on your lights. My fusebox came fitted with 5 amp fuses on all the terminals and this was sufficient for the lights to work at SVA, but the first time I used the car at night the fuses on the headlights blew after about a minute as they weren't up to the current. Luckily it was a quiet road and I had a selection of spare fuses to get me home.

KevinW
16-07-18, 07:40 AM
Clive - I think you may have something there - I had similar issues with main beam and wipers on my old Sumo.

All lights working correctly the day before, as stated above, BUT..... I had only tested these one circuit at a time, as was the method used at SVA, 10 years ago.

The Gillingham IVA inspector wanted everything on: brake lights, main beam, high beam, reverse, fog and hazards - so the electrical system was under a considerably higher load than I had tested it. That's probably a fair test of electrical integrity to ensure there is plenty of capacity in the system to deliver whatever may be demanded of it in the future. So a fair fail item, I think, and down to my lack of understanding of what was required.

Ian 46
24-07-18, 07:12 PM
I wasn't aware you failed on the seat belt underfloor strengthening plates. If they are good for racing cars (Merlin Motorsport) surely they are good for the street.

I have these fitted to my car and I'm not going to change them before my IVA. Never had any issues with them at SVA.

KevinW
24-07-18, 09:20 PM
-exactly. Its annyoing but fixable. Totally over the top given the intrinsic floor strength.

philbrad73
24-07-18, 09:54 PM
Hi Kev,

Is the use of the plates a problem because they are being used for the floor of the crendon or is it the plates themselves?

Highlander
25-07-18, 08:29 AM
I would have thought that larger strengthening/spreader plates would only be necessary if the seat belts were anchored to the seat and as they are not, where do they think the bloody seat is going?

KevinW
25-07-18, 08:49 AM
Hi Kev,

Is the use of the plates a problem because they are being used for the floor of the crendon or is it the plates themselves?

The claim is that the floor was of inadequate thickness (its thicker than a Sumo!!!) for plates of that size.
I pointed out what is common practice on the Sumo, and indeed what had passed at SVA: not interested.
The examiner then pointed me to this diagram:

36242

and said the spreader plates needed to be of at least 10cm in size, ideally with a folded edge to increase strength and with a radiused edge.
I dont know how the fuck I can fold 4mm steel plate, so I will have to hope that a 4mm thick plate is sufficient.

I was pointed to this part of the IVA manual:

'b. Fixed Single Seats
A typical single seat fixed directly to the vehicle floor is likely to require
 load spreading plates at least 100 x 100 x 4mm thick.'

and

'NOTE: Various proprietary load-spreading plates are marketed for this purpose but these are primarily aimed at the “M2” vehicle market for which the
seat belt anchorage test loads are only half as great. Unless documentary evidence is provided to the contrary, simple load-spreading plates or washers
should not be regarded as being satisfactory.'

KevinW
25-07-18, 08:53 AM
I would have thought that larger strengthening/spreader plates would only be necessary if the seat belts were anchored to the seat and as they are not, where do they think the bloody seat is going?

I agree....

aaronjb
25-07-18, 08:55 AM
The way I'm interpreting that .. your seats would have been fine if they'd been on runners, with the runners attached to the floor via spreader plates? Which seems.. like utter nonsense. Hopefully I'm right, though, otherwise all cars will start failing (Dax bolts through ~3mm steel flat bar at the back and 1.5" box section at the front, I think AK use steel floors like Crendon etc etc), and losing road clearance under the seat to spreader places with folded edges seems like a way to catch every speed bump going...

KevinW
25-07-18, 11:06 AM
To be clear, it was the seat belt fixings to the floor pan that were the problem, not the seats themselves, despite those bits of the IVA manual referring to seats with seat belts attached to them. The seat mounting seemed all good and passed.

I think I probably need to seek clarification before attempting to present the car for a re-test. I am well aware that virtually all kit cars will to be failed if they are to be held to the same standard that I am being asked to comply with. But I am very interested to hear from anyone who has put a car through Gillingham recently and/or used the Merlin spreader plates.

Neil O
25-07-18, 11:59 AM
As you know Kev, I used the std spreader plates on Crendon 43 for SVA and they were fine, no issues at all.
Plenty of other Crendons along with all manner of other kits have passed with the same plates.
The guy at Gillingham needs to be taken away and retrained......

Ian 46
27-07-18, 04:39 PM
The claim is that the floor was of inadequate thickness (its thicker than a Sumo!!!) for plates of that size.
I pointed out what is common practice on the Sumo, and indeed what had passed at SVA: not interested.
The examiner then pointed me to this diagram:

36242

and said the spreader plates needed to be of at least 10cm in size, ideally with a folded edge to increase strength and with a radiused edge.
I dont know how the fuck I can fold 4mm steel plate, so I will have to hope that a 4mm thick plate is sufficient.

I was pointed to this part of the IVA manual:

'b. Fixed Single Seats
A typical single seat fixed directly to the vehicle floor is likely to require
 load spreading plates at least 100 x 100 x 4mm thick.'

and

'NOTE: Various proprietary load-spreading plates are marketed for this purpose but these are primarily aimed at the “M2” vehicle market for which the
seat belt anchorage test loads are only half as great. Unless documentary evidence is provided to the contrary, simple load-spreading plates or washers
should not be regarded as being satisfactory.'

Been looking for 'proprietary' seat load spreading plates on the web and can only find 'large' load spreading plates which are 65 x 65 x 3mm thick (used for seatbelt anchorages)

Has anyone found any 100 x 100 x 4mm?

AKBaz
27-07-18, 05:46 PM
Ian I used 100 x 100 x 6mm on my AK even though it has a 3mm steel floor. I had these cut and supplied from ebay, just do a search there should be plenty of suppliers on there.

Barry

KevinW
27-07-18, 06:11 PM
Ian I used 100 x 100 x 6mm on my AK even though it has a 3mm steel floor. I had these cut and supplied from ebay, just do a search there should be plenty of suppliers on there.

Barry

Thanks Barry, interesting to know what test centre that was for?

AKBaz
27-07-18, 06:32 PM
Kevin it was Gillingham same as you 2 years ago. The youngest guy there did mine. We had to have a few discussions on a few items which we solved by negotiating. I just couldn't get the FE below 102 db. Seven days later passed at 95 db with some home made proper baffles not stuffing it so much that it barely ran.

Ian I just did a quick ebay search and found 100 x 100 x 5 x 8 plates delivered free for £17.80.

Barry

KevinW
27-07-18, 09:46 PM
Thanks Barry.

andy l
27-07-18, 09:58 PM
Hi Kevin
If you are having troubles finding steel, try metals4u, they do custom sizes 100x100x6 x200mm £4.28 +vat & p&p

KevinW
27-07-18, 11:07 PM
Thanks Andy will take a look.
TBH the armour plated seat belt spreaders are an easy, albeit PITA, to deal with.
I have a list of other headaches too (many my on fault i should add).

Ian 46
31-07-18, 07:56 PM
Thanks for the info Barry.

KevinW
31-07-18, 09:50 PM
Ian - given the examiner told me the edge should ideally be folded (on 4mm steel!!!!) I plan to go belt'n'braces and weld a rectangular finger along one of the edges and triangulate along the perpendicular edge. A friend will do the welding for me. Once painted up I will sandwich these onto the underfloor using a piece of gasket paper. I assume that ought to be beyond reproach.

aaronjb
01-08-18, 08:14 AM
If you've got any engineering shops locally, they could easily fold 4mm steel in a hydraulic press brake, if that makes things any easier. (There's one around the corner from me, but that doesn't help you much!)

philbrad73
01-08-18, 09:51 AM
Just so I understand, we are talking about fixing the seats down that require 100*100*4 folded spreader plates even if the floor pan is steel. Mines a pilgrim which was just large penny washers. The 7/16 harness spreader plates are still ok for the harness?

KevinW
01-08-18, 11:21 AM
Phil - I see you are in Liverpool, so I think you will be fine with a conventional solution.

The issue, I beieve, is a 'local IVA intepretation issue' ;) . From what I have gathered, there are no other testing stations insisting on these lengths (but anyone else with similar experience, please chip in).

In my case I am stuck with it..... 2mm steel floor, welded to transverse structural outriggers and Merlin spreader plates deemed inadequate. I've decided to stop sulking and sup it up - shit happens. And so far as I understand the issue was about how the lower seat belt fixings are secured, not the seats, irrespective of what the IVA manual may illustrate. Its an inconvenience, but i can deal with it. I suppose I would also say that its useful to choose a testing station that has seen your type of car before.

Might be worth adding that my inspector told me the story of another guy who had waved stuff through at IVA/SVA (I forget which) and then the Cobra owner died in a crash, and the inspector was in trouble. Might explain a few things.

Neil O
01-08-18, 11:52 AM
I call bullshit on your inspector's story. Anyone recall a death in our Cobra replica community?
I'll stand corrected if the worst has happened but I don't remember anything like that being talked about here or at any shows etc.

philbrad73
01-08-18, 12:06 PM
Is this the type of edge they are referring to?

http://www.johnadamssupplies.co.uk/shop/unwin-saftey-systems/unusp-unwin-spreader-plate/

conrod
01-08-18, 02:07 PM
I call bullshit on your inspector's story. Anyone recall a death in our Cobra replica community?
I'll stand corrected if the worst has happened but I don't remember anything like that being talked about here or at any shows etc.

Possibly this one?

https://www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk/news/crime/accidental-verdict-in-car-crash-death-1-3208752

philbrad73
01-08-18, 02:30 PM
It doesn't refer to a problem with the harness, just that it didn't have head restraints? Also reads like bumpsteer?

KevinW
01-08-18, 03:34 PM
Is this the type of edge they are referring to?

http://www.johnadamssupplies.co.uk/shop/unwin-saftey-systems/unusp-unwin-spreader-plate/

I was referred to the manual that shows an edge at right angles. I am not sure if 3mm will be sufficient for my inspector, but probably OK for others i would guess.

KevinW
01-08-18, 03:35 PM
It doesn't refer to a problem with the harness, just that it didn't have head restraints? Also reads like bumpsteer?

Interestingly, bump steer isn't in the IVA test! Damned bad luck for a 30mph impact - wonder if he submarined.

conrod
01-08-18, 04:54 PM
IIRC the driver unfortunately suffered fatal head injuries. When I first read this at the time, it prompted me to fit a headrest to my Dax to stop my head smashing back into the roll hoop in the event of a frontal or side impact.

AKCharlie
01-08-18, 06:21 PM
I can well understand the headrests would assist with a rear collision but not a side impact. I think the Guy was very unlucky but the side of your head is not a strong area to have a bad bump.
Charlie


IIRC the driver unfortunately suffered fatal head injuries. When I first read this at the time, it prompted me to fit a headrest to my Dax to stop my head smashing back into the roll hoop in the event of a frontal or side impact.

Dek
01-08-18, 10:16 PM
If you've got any engineering shops locally, they could easily fold 4mm steel in a hydraulic press brake, if that makes things any easier. (There's one around the corner from me, but that doesn't help you much!)

Aaron could you let me have the details please? Always useful and getting scarce now. My local one at Brixworth was demolished to make way for new houses. Who needs them when we’ve got cars to look after?
Thanks.

Dek
01-08-18, 10:24 PM
Also could have been due to a lsd not de-rated. Certainly would have made the rear twitchy in the wet.
Dek