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TurboFreak
01-05-21, 01:07 PM
I am shortly taking the Sumo Cobra for its IVA in Gillingham.

Can anyone confirm if the fuel tank and/or filler needs to be earthed:?:

Does the gear knob need to show position of gears:?:

I seem to recall seeing something about earthing filler neck last year... thanks.

johnnyoz
01-05-21, 01:23 PM
I was asked to show an earth at Gillingham,gearknob has to conform to radius requiements only

Rudolph
01-05-21, 03:31 PM
Yes - All metal fuel tanks must have an earth path to prevent the build up of static electricity. (this may be a separate bonding or the mounting arrangement where it does not isolate the tank), and I earthed the filler cap as well for safety. Put it somewhere easily visible.

TurboFreak
02-05-21, 11:17 AM
Thanks for confirming earth required, will get that done today.

IVA in 3 days :eek:... has anyone actually passed at first attempt?

kdavies3
02-05-21, 12:19 PM
Many have passed first time.
Not me personally, 2nd attempt for me 3 times.

Don't be disheartened if you fail, at least you come away with a definitive snag list.

Julesdm
02-05-21, 05:42 PM
iwas tested at gillingham and they actively looked for the earth. i had no indications on my gear knob.


I am shortly taking the Sumo Cobra for its IVA in Gillingham.

Can anyone confirm if the fuel tank and/or filler needs to be earthed:?:

Does the gear knob need to show position of gears:?:

I seem to recall seeing something about earthing filler neck last year... thanks.

KevinW
02-05-21, 07:38 PM
At Gillingham they wanted evidence my tank and my fuel cap were both earthed..

aaronjb
02-05-21, 08:58 PM
At Gillingham they wanted evidence my tank and my fuel cap were both earthed..

I am assuming they are fine with stuffing their head under the wheelarch to look, or did you take photos?

Cobragreyhead
02-05-21, 11:29 PM
Are they not earthed through the mounting bolts to chassis?

johnnyoz
03-05-21, 09:42 AM
I am assuming they are fine with stuffing their head under the wheelarch to look, or did you take photos?


My Ram has the tank inside the boot,so everything can be seen.I took photos of everything that I thought might be a bit hard to see and the tester took those as evidence of compliance.Seat belt mounts,engine number on block,chassis bracing all included in the build photos that I took with me.I think that overkill is the best thing to do.

GUMBALL
03-05-21, 09:49 AM
You've all got me worried now...

My Dax hasn't had an earth on the fuel tank for 22 years - should I be worried??

Or, is the earth that is connected to the sender enough?

No earth on the filler either.

Sean

Rudolph
03-05-21, 05:13 PM
It's just good practice to link all the large lumps of metal together to get them all to the same potential and makes life much easier/safer. As the bodyshell may be non conducting, the chassis is the main earth return path for everything, so you need a really secure strap to a bare point on the chassis from anything that has rubber mountings such as the engine, gearbox, fuel tank and radiator - then you can get the lights and all the other small parts connected to the chassis - finding a earth fault is one of the hardest jobs to do if a light starts to flicker. In the case of the fuel filler it is just possible that it could be at a different potential to the filler nozzle (rubber hose to the tank presumably) and this is the last place you need static electricity to build up, so add a length of black wire - it costs nothing.

On an old Mini I had the embarrassment of losing power and the fault was eventually traced to the throttle return spring. The engine earth had corroded at the chassis and was failing, and the only way for the engine to securely connect to the chassis was through the spring which was fixed between the carb and the chassis - the spring got red hot.

GDCobra
03-05-21, 08:40 PM
On an old Mini I had the embarrassment of losing power and the fault was eventually traced to the throttle return spring. The engine earth had corroded at the chassis and was failing, and the only way for the engine to securely connect to the chassis was through the spring which was fixed between the carb and the chassis - the spring got red hot.

I remember a workmate telling me similar story many years ago but it was the handbrake cable which provided the “line of least resistance” which promptly melted and caused it to fail.
if I recall correctly that was a mini too.

Must admit, although I have always supplied a wire link from my tank to the filler I often wondered how this is supposed to work as the car itself is not “earthed”. I remember years ago you used to see a few cars with a bit of chain hanging from the exhaust which was supposed to be for this reason.

KevinW
03-05-21, 09:58 PM
Are they not earthed through the mounting bolts to chassis?

You're right. But its good engineering practice to have a dedicated electrical connection as well, as rust/other crap etc 'might' cause an issue.

IIRC I argued that my tank was earthed via the fuel level sender, as I could show an earth wire from it going to the chassis.
On the filler cap (and yes I was asked about this), I added an earth tag to the underside of one of the filler neck flange mounting bolts, ran this down the filler tube in the boot, clipped using zip ties and then earthed it onto the tail light loom cluster. I opened the boot and they could look in with a torch to check all OK.

Aaron: they were happy to look at where ever I directed them for the requisite IVA reg. Although I had lots of pics standing by, especially for the triangulation I had to do on the seatbelts, the only time I needed photos was for the engine number which was virtually impossible to see with the naked eye. Took me ages to get an acceptable legible pic of this before the test - had to show that this was indeed the same engine, through evidence of paint chip and identical ancillary items in the photo as well as demonstrable on the car.

TurboFreak
03-05-21, 10:34 PM
It's just good practice to link all the large lumps of metal together to get them all to the same potential and makes life much easier/safer. As the bodyshell may be non conducting, the chassis is the main earth return path for everything, so you need a really secure strap to a bare point on the chassis from anything that has rubber mountings such as the engine, gearbox, fuel tank and radiator - then you can get the lights and all the other small parts connected to the chassis - finding a earth fault is one of the hardest jobs to do if a light starts to flicker. In the case of the fuel filler it is just possible that it could be at a different potential to the filler nozzle (rubber hose to the tank presumably) and this is the last place you need static electricity to build up, so add a length of black wire - it costs nothing.

On an old Mini I had the embarrassment of losing power and the fault was eventually traced to the throttle return spring. The engine earth had corroded at the chassis and was failing, and the only way for the engine to securely connect to the chassis was through the spring which was fixed between the carb and the chassis - the spring got red hot.

I'm a panel beater by trade, classic minis were very popular in my teens/early twenties, the poor earth was a common problem and usually resulted in earthing through the manual choke cable:eek:

TurboFreak
03-05-21, 10:48 PM
You're right. But its good engineering practice to have a dedicated electrical connection as well, as rust/other crap etc 'might' cause an issue.

IIRC I argued that my tank was earthed via the fuel level sender, as I could show an earth wire from it going to the chassis.
On the filler cap (and yes I was asked about this), I added an earth tag to the underside of one of the filler neck flange mounting bolts, ran this down the filler tube in the boot, clipped using zip ties and then earthed it onto the tail light loom cluster. I opened the boot and they could look in with a torch to check all OK.

Aaron: they were happy to look at where ever I directed them for the requisite IVA reg. Although I had lots of pics standing by, especially for the triangulation I had to do on the seatbelts, the only time I needed photos was for the engine number which was virtually impossible to see with the naked eye. Took me ages to get an acceptable legible pic of this before the test - had to show that this was indeed the same engine, through evidence of paint chip and identical ancillary items in the photo as well as demonstrable on the car.

Not really sure how the filler cap can be earthed on mine?

It pushes through the rubber seal and into the short rubber hose connected to tank, so no bolts to get connection for earth from and neck of filler is completely inserted into hose.

I could drill hole through side of filler neck and tap it out, then cut rubber hose to allow earth screw fixing... but surprised this is really necessary.

Other simple option might be simply to insert bare wire inside hose where the jubilee clip clamps it... but would that be acceptable?

KevinW
04-05-21, 09:44 AM
Not really sure how the filler cap can be earthed on mine?

It pushes through the rubber seal and into the short rubber hose connected to tank, so no bolts to get connection for earth from and neck of filler is completely inserted into hose.

I could drill hole through side of filler neck and tap it out, then cut rubber hose to allow earth screw fixing... but surprised this is really necessary.

Other simple option might be simply to insert bare wire inside hose where the jubilee clip clamps it... but would that be acceptable?

You're right, the petrol cap is usually fully insulated from the tank because of the rubber pipe connection, and the fact that we have grp bodies.
Are you saying there are no screws on the flange/neck that bolts to the body? - that's what I used. Never seen one that didn't have some mounting screws or bolts of some sort om the flange part.
if not, then I guess you could use braided earth cable round the jubilee clip.

Chris1
04-05-21, 04:37 PM
You've all got me worried now...

My Dax hasn't had an earth on the fuel tank for 22 years - should I be worried??

Or, is the earth that is connected to the sender enough?

No earth on the filler either.

Sean
I wouldn't get too worried about it, but if you are, it doesn't take much effort
to sort it.
I've just done mine on my SR cobra, you don't need heavy gauge wire to carry
out the work as there is no high current involved with static electricity.
What I would add, as you have mentioned the fuel sender unit earthing,
mine is insulated earth return so would have no effect on the metal fuel tank earth .
As a guess I would think most are insulated earth return and not the normal standard
earth return units.
I have had my cob for over twenty years as well, so this thread has prompted me to
do it !
Thanks to all those who have bought this to my attention.
Chris.

Chris1
04-05-21, 04:45 PM
Just to add ,
mine was built pre sva

Chris1
04-05-21, 05:41 PM
Are they not earthed through the mounting bolts to chassis?
I'm sure the early DAX was similar to my SR and therefore the tank strap bolts do not earth through
the chassis.
Chris.

GDCobra
04-05-21, 07:08 PM
I wouldn't get too worried about it, but if you are, it doesn't take much effort
to sort it.
I've just done mine on my SR cobra, you don't need heavy gauge wire to carry
out the work as there is no high current involved with static electricity.
What I would add, as you have mentioned the fuel sender unit earthing,
mine is insulated earth return so would have no effect on the metal fuel tank earth .
As a guess I would think most are insulated earth return and not the normal standard
earth return units.
I have had my cob for over twenty years as well, so this thread has prompted me to
do it !
Thanks to all those who have bought this to my attention.
Chris.


That's a good point, I've always had a cable from my filler to the tank, although I don't fully understand this it said to do it in the build notes and who am I to argue. The tank would have originally been grounded (to the car) via the sender, no dedicated ground.
I realised recently that since I've changed my gauge sender I don't have this ground so have now added a ground line from the loom to the tank.

mark chambers
04-05-21, 11:45 PM
Apologies if it’s already been quoted in a previous post but on my DAX I fitted a slightly larger fuel tank not the DAX one so had new brackets made, but the filler neck I had made and put swaged 10 mm fitting for a breather hose high up. I then put an extra good quality 51mm clamp on the filler neck and made a small earth strap from neck to chassis, passed IVA and also no gear knob markings, good luck.

tonym
05-05-21, 07:00 AM
No offense to the op but have you actually read the iva manual? All answers to your questions are in there.

TurboFreak
05-05-21, 10:12 PM
No offense to the op but have you actually read the iva manual? All answers to your questions are in there.

err... war and peace? and certainly can be open to interpretation.

Failed IVA today, didn't even question the earth for fuel filler or tank, but with full tank of fuel strong smell of petrol in boot?

No leaks and it was determined the breather was not going to outside of vehicle, so simple fix.

I need to sort out IVA compliant mirrors as the nice looking, but crap bullet style ones fitted give very poor rear viewing.. any ideas as if fitted to windscreen frame must be permanent (not clamped) and fold in if knocked.

I need to remove fuel tank and make up a box frame with triangulated support for top seat belt mountings as they are bolted into a sort of T frame, not good enough in an accident.

All in a pretty good first attempt with a handful of fails, they reckon to fail about 99% on first test btw.

Lucky with exhaust which thought would fail, limit is 99.9db and mine was 99.5db :D

They have very little in way of bookings at the moment, at one time had 4 of them around car :eek:... but they were decent blokes and helpful.

KevinW
05-05-21, 10:17 PM
Sounds like a good outcome.
I thought they were OK with Pilgrim seat belt fixings at Gillingham, but hey ho.
Quote p.67?
https://www.pilgrim-motorsports.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Pt01_Sumo_Construction_Manual-merged-1.pdf
You have the same issue/set-up as Hawks do, as the tank is in the way.
Have a look here for some ideas... https://cobra289fia.com/2015/12/20/seat-belt-mounting-kit/
You need to add pillar mounted mirrors that fold back - plenty of pics of these available on the web, and can be purchased from Europa and other suppliers.

TurboFreak
06-05-21, 11:17 AM
There were 2 main testers at Gillingham, they often could not agree.
example:
1) I was going to get fail for position of side repeaters, but two other testers pointed out he had miscalculated and they were in fact legal. In fairness to tester he did admit error to me and attempted to explain a very complicated mathematical equation they use.
2) The first digit in chassis number was not spaced close enough to the second digit D VLA instead of DVLA, they said they would let this go, but when writing report a 3rd tester in office insisted it was a fail as someone could put a 1 or an I after the D to read DIVLA... but why would someone do that to make an illegal 18 digit chassis number?
3) The front indicator position is to low, although obviously must go in position of the formed front section that they fit in, they finally agreed the answer is to have lower half of lens blacked out... now this obviously does not relocate the indicator but merely reduces its visibility by 50%, so effectively placing the visible light a few CMs higher.... this appeared plain stupid to me, but they agreed that is the way to resolve issue.
4) The fog lamp and reversing lamp is one central unit placed as high as possible fixed onto rear panel just below boot handle, the fog lamp previously fitted was much lower beneath rear panel (as many are), I thought that position was to low but they at first thought even my lamp was to low and it was 15cm higher than the one I removed?
The fog lamp was wired to only come on when lights are on, but they said it must only be able to come on only when headlights on, not side lights? Now this made no sense to me as a fog lamp accidentally left on in poor light when only side lights on is unlikely to bother other drivers, however a fog lamp accidentally left on when headlights are being used in the dark will obviously be more of an issue, they actually agreed with my point.. but rules is rules.
5) They were aware the type of SBC engine was made in years that meant no emission test required, however the certificate supplied confirming year as 1968 was not accepted because the engine number on certificate had one digit error, there was a 6 when it should have been a 3, obviously a basic mistake as the company that supplied the certificate simply misread number on block by one digit. So even knowing the year the engine was built meant no emissions test the refused to accept certificate. :roll:

TurboFreak
06-05-21, 11:46 AM
Sounds like a good outcome.
I thought they were OK with Pilgrim seat belt fixings at Gillingham, but hey ho.
Quote p.67?
https://www.pilgrim-motorsports.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Pt01_Sumo_Construction_Manual-merged-1.pdf
You have the same issue/set-up as Hawks do, as the tank is in the way.
Have a look here for some ideas... https://cobra289fia.com/2015/12/20/seat-belt-mounting-kit/
You need to add pillar mounted mirrors that fold back - plenty of pics of these available on the web, and can be purchased from Europa and other suppliers.

Ref seat belt mountings, yes they are fitted as shown in Pilgrim construction manual, however they pointed out manufacturers of kit cars often get it wrong, so it's tank out to rectify by fitting a more robust frame to support the inertia belt fixing point.

They said they had irate customer who's £100k car had failed on 3 attempts now.. and was not happy with manufacturer of kit (I don't know what car it is), the perspex used does not have a approval stamp, the manufacturer of kit insist it's to required standard and gave customer stickers to put on the perspex, however as you know IVA do not like stickers.... so refuse to pass it!

Grumbleweed
06-05-21, 12:26 PM
wow, i will need to look at this too, not heard of it before but as this is a standard detail on the Pilgrim, you think it would come up a lot? Have you spoken to Pilgrim about it yet? Would be interested to see your proposed solution?


Ref seat belt mountings, yes they are fitted as shown in Pilgrim construction manual, however they pointed out manufacturers of kit cars often get it wrong, so it's tank out to rectify by fitting a more robust frame to support the inertia belt fixing point.

They said they had irate customer who's £100k car had failed on 3 attempts now.. and was not happy with manufacturer of kit (I don't know what car it is), the perspex used does not have a approval stamp, the manufacturer of kit insist it's to required standard and gave customer stickers to put on the perspex, however as you know IVA do not like stickers.... so refuse to pass it!

KevinW
06-05-21, 12:50 PM
wow, i will need to look at this too, not heard of it before but as this is a standard detail on the Pilgrim, you think it would come up a lot? Have you spoken to Pilgrim about it yet? Would be interested to see your proposed solution?

I really believe it all depends on where you go.
Gillingham and one of the ones further North that some AKs have been tested at have an issue on triangulation.
My Crendon tested at Gillingham is the only Crendon that needed the seat belt pillar triangulated: 48 cars before me, and several since - no issues at other test centres.
They also failed me on using Merlin Motorsport seat belt spreaders - had to make much larger ones, but you don't need them on a Sumo anyway.
My Sumo passed SVA at Gillingham in 2007, as did many others, and no seat belt issues. Down to individual interpretation of the rules. Worth speaking to Pilgrim though.

KevinW
06-05-21, 12:55 PM
Ref seat belt mountings, yes they are fitted as shown in Pilgrim construction manual, however they pointed out manufacturers of kit cars often get it wrong, so it's tank out to rectify by fitting a more robust frame to support the inertia belt fixing point.

They said they had irate customer who's £100k car had failed on 3 attempts now.. and was not happy with manufacturer of kit (I don't know what car it is), the perspex used does not have a approval stamp, the manufacturer of kit insist it's to required standard and gave customer stickers to put on the perspex, however as you know IVA do not like stickers.... so refuse to pass it!

I was referring to the EU Seatbelt pull test that's certified in the build manual. But your easiest route is probably to build a beefed up triangulated cage.

TurboFreak
07-05-21, 01:32 PM
I really believe it all depends on where you go.
Gillingham and one of the ones further North that some AKs have been tested at have an issue on triangulation.
My Crendon tested at Gillingham is the only Crendon that needed the seat belt pillar triangulated: 48 cars before me, and several since - no issues at other test centres.
They also failed me on using Merlin Motorsport seat belt spreaders - had to make much larger ones, but you don't need them on a Sumo anyway.
My Sumo passed SVA at Gillingham in 2007, as did many others, and no seat belt issues. Down to individual interpretation of the rules. Worth speaking to Pilgrim though.

The wording in IVA bible states mounting for seat belts must be 'TRIANGULATED AND BRACED', I suspect the T type support was indeed supplied by Pilgrim when build started over 5 years ago.
I have sent email to Pilgrim tech support (John) as reception were very polite but unable to answer my question.
I was hoping they might have a triangulated frame now as an uprated part to avoid having to make one myself.