PDA

View Full Version : Seat belt mounting



TurboFreak
10-05-21, 10:27 AM
My Pilgrim Sumo 3 just failed IVA, a few simple fixes but the most difficult is the seat belt mounting for central fitted inertia belts.

Testers not happy as fixing needs to be 'Triangulated and Braced', looking over fuel tank it looked as if the belts were only mounted on a T section which I presumed was welded or bolted to chassis behind tank.

I removed tank and attached photo shows what I found, not even secured to chassis and fibre glassed into Sumo shell :eek:

Has anyone else on here had to fit a triangulated frame to better support seat belt mounting, if so please post a photo if possible.

I think the only way to fit any framework is to move fuel tank further back, which means relocating filler and bodywork repairs/paintwork.

Extremely surprised Pilgrim thought fitting the seat belt support bracket into fibre glass was strong enough in an accident, even if the support bracket was secured into chassis at the bottom.

Ian C
10-05-21, 11:18 AM
Hi,

If I remember correctly the Pilgrim Sumo was tested by the German authorities and passed their TUV vehicle roadworthiness test. This confirmed the security of Pilgrim's method of anchoring the top mounting of the inertia seatbelt to a metal frame bonded into the body shell.

I believe the issue arises when the inspector is unable to assess the strength of the body shell and therefore plays safe by demanding a metal framework to securing the anchor point to the chassis.

It might be worth asking Pilgrim for a copy of the TUV certificate and to support an appeal against the decision.

Good luck whichever way you go.

Ian

KevinW
10-05-21, 11:26 AM
What Ian said.

Chris1
10-05-21, 12:00 PM
Hi,

If I remember correctly the Pilgrim Sumo was tested by the German authorities and passed their TUV vehicle roadworthiness test. This confirmed the security of Pilgrim's method of anchoring the top mounting of the inertia seatbelt to a metal frame bonded into the body shell.

I believe the issue arises when the inspector is unable to assess the strength of the body shell and therefore plays safe by demanding a metal framework to securing the anchor point to the chassis.

It might be worth asking Pilgrim for a copy of the TUV certificate and to support an appeal against the decision.

Good luck whichever way you go.

Ian
It was proberbly about the same time as Southern Roadcraft with regards to the TUV tests being
carried out .
The frame work for the seat belt anchorage was totally different to the Pilgrim set up and
I'm sure the SVA testers would proberbly fail these although they were TUV tested .
Chris.

TurboFreak
11-05-21, 12:33 AM
Hi,

If I remember correctly the Pilgrim Sumo was tested by the German authorities and passed their TUV vehicle roadworthiness test. This confirmed the security of Pilgrim's method of anchoring the top mounting of the inertia seatbelt to a metal frame bonded into the body shell.

I believe the issue arises when the inspector is unable to assess the strength of the body shell and therefore plays safe by demanding a metal framework to securing the anchor point to the chassis.

It might be worth asking Pilgrim for a copy of the TUV certificate and to support an appeal against the decision.

Good luck whichever way you go.

Ian

Yes I have a reply from Pilgrim engineer who indeed confirms there method of mounting into the body has been tested and past, he asked where my test was carried out (Gillingham) as he appeared annoyed testers were still not passing the proven save method Pilgrim use to secure seat belts.

I know the IVA testers made it clear they thought they knew best, stating the manufacturers of kit cars often get it wrong.

I don't want to antagonize IVA testers but if some sort of approval with TUV certificate means I don't have a s**t load of work to do it might be worth the risk :rolleyes:

TurboFreak
11-05-21, 12:38 AM
THIS IS FULL REPLY FROM PILGRIM:

This issue always makes me angry. Pilgrim seat belt mountings are hidden behind the fuel tank. We realised this would cause an issue at test, so we spent thousands of pounds having the seatbelt set up type approved. IVA testing stations have a copy of this approval on their file, and yet we still have this ongoing issue.
The T frame that you refer to is bonded into the body shell of the car and has passed all required stress tests. Thousands of cars have passed SVA and IVA with this setup. I will send you photographs to present to the tester. If you refer to the build manual the seatbelt fitting section shows the type approval image.

KevinW
11-05-21, 07:26 AM
- think that should be sufficient. But you might need to email the Chief Inspector and get a communication going with them before going back to Gillingham.
Contact details should be available on the web if you do some googling.

TurboFreak
11-05-21, 10:46 AM
- think that should be sufficient. But you might need to email the Chief Inspector and get a communication going with them before going back to Gillingham.
Contact details should be available on the web if you do some googling.

I contacted DVLA who advised me to email IVA chief engineer, this is my email:

Good morning,

DVLA advised me to email you about this issue.

Vehicle failed on a few very minor issues, however the testers advised the most difficult issue to resolve was the top mounted inertia seat belts mounting.

To resolve this and fit a triangulated and braced frame to support existing mounting bracket involves relocating fuel tank further to rear of vehicle to make room for a support frame to the IVA manual specifications (triangulated and braced), after making a triangulated frame the existing bracket needs cutting out and removing from body and welding to frame, followed by bodywork/paintwork due the new fuel tank filler position.

I contacted Pilgrim for advice as they produce the body with seat belt mounting as part of the that bodyshell... this was the reply from there technical engineer.

Pilgrim seat belt mountings are hidden behind the fuel tank. We realised this would cause an issue at test, so we spent thousands of pounds having the seatbelt set up type approved. IVA testing stations have a copy of this approval on their file, and yet we still have this ongoing issue.
The T frame that you refer to is bonded into the body shell of the car and has passed all required stress tests. Thousands of cars have passed SVA and IVA with this setup. I will send you photographs to present to the tester. If you refer to the build manual the seatbelt fitting section shows the type approval image.

Please can you confirm the seat belt mounting is to IVA required standard and if possible advise Gillingham, obviously I need to resolve the other minor fail issues and book re-test but don’t want any problem getting the seat belt mounting passed if it has in fact been tested to required standards.

Regards,

Firestarter29
11-05-21, 05:15 PM
Apologies for the minor deviation of the thread, does anyone know if it is possible to change the seat belts without removing the fuel tank in a Mk2 Sumo ?

TurboFreak
15-05-21, 11:52 AM
UPDATE: Finally got reply from chief examiners office, advising me Gillingham would contact me.

MY REPLY:

Subject: RE: IVA. TAS525900

Good morning,

I have not heard from Gillingham yet regarding this issue.

But my understanding was it was your department that could confirm Pilgrim seat belt mountings were or were not to IVA acceptable standard, and that you then advise the examiners, this is why DVLA advised me to contact you to resolve issue.

I feel that I’m in the middle of some sort of disagreement between yourselves and the manufacturer as Pilgrim are adamant the way they produce there cars have incorporated a seat belt mounting that is fully tested to proven stress test level for the IVA test.

The Pilgrim Sumo build manual confirms it has European Seat Belt Anchorage Approval and complies with seat belt anchorage test. Type approved REG.14 as amended to 14.02.
Can you confirm (as manufacturer have advised me) that you actually have that type approval on file?

Regards,

TurboFreak
15-05-21, 12:01 PM
Apologies for the minor deviation of the thread, does anyone know if it is possible to change the seat belts without removing the fuel tank in a Mk2 Sumo ?

I don't think Sumo 3 mounting is any different to your Sumo 2, if that's the case you will have to remove fuel tank.

The two bolts on top for inertia seat belts are no problem, these go into welded nuts on the support bracket (the one I,m having IVA issue with).

But there are two bolts that secure fixing below the inertia belts fixings, these two bolts go through a plate welded to mounting bracket and are removed from inside the boot, behind fuel tank.

Firestarter29
15-05-21, 09:19 PM
Thank you, That’s really helpful with the pic and has saved me undoing the seatbelts and then hearing the tinkle of the nuts dropping behind the fuel tank.

Good luck getting your IVA woes sorted.

KevinW
15-05-21, 11:49 PM
you can remove the top fixings and go in from the roll bar mountings if you adapt a spanner and put it on a long pole.
thats what did when i got the car painted. tank never came out from the day it was installed, like this ....
http://www.cobraclub.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5334/title/paint2/cat/500

TurboFreak
16-05-21, 04:44 PM
you can remove the top fixings and go in from the roll bar mountings if you adapt a spanner and put it on a long pole.
thats what did when i got the car painted. tank never came out from the day it was installed, like this ....
http://www.cobraclub.com/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5334/title/paint2/cat/500

To be fair I didn't find removing tank any real problem, undo feed pipe and pump (2 screws) disconnect filler pipe (2 jubilee clips) and undo the 4 bolts that hold tank in, this required friend in boot while I was underneath undoing the nuts.

I intend to make up two brackets with nuts welded in position so it's only a one man job after tank is refitted.

I think it took longer to empty the full tank of fuel as (required for IVA test) then it did to remove the tank!:-)

Firestarter29
17-05-21, 10:28 AM
you can remove the top fixings and go in from the roll bar mountings if you adapt a spanner and put it on a long pole........

That's really ingenious, not sure my towel rail roll bar holes are in the right place. It's worth a look tho, thank you Kev.


To be fair I didn't find removing tank any real problem .......:-)

Maybe when I'm feeling brave, and not likely to use it for a while. My tank still has 9 litres in it even when it "runs out" of petrol. Cheers :)

TurboFreak
18-05-21, 11:25 AM
UPDATE:

It appears on-going problem as tester stands by refusing to pass seat belts as mounted to Pilgrim Sumo mounting bracket.

A) He needs to see FULL stress test report but only has part of it from 1988 stress test?

b) He needs evidence seat belts mounted exactly as the belts for the type approved test.

I did explain that there was only one way to fit belts onto the Pilgrim Sumo mounting bracket, but he would not accept this, however as fuel tank is removed I have photo evidence, so advice to anyone doing a Cobra replica build make sure you take photo when belts fitted prior to fitting the fuel tank.

This issue really needs to be resolved so others avoid the same problem as I have.

John at Pilgrim Motor Sport technical support has now taken this matter over with IVA examiners to try to resolve it once and for all.

KevinW
18-05-21, 12:02 PM
Think you just have to wait for the final outcome.
Either Pilgrim will have to build cars differently or a compromise of some sort provided to everyone's satisfaction.

A solution could look something like:

Pilgrim submit full documentation on seat belt tests as Swansea, currently not in possession of a satisfactory set of documentary evidence;
Central records updated and circulated to all test centres;

Then:
photographic evidence of correct installation presented before fuel tank installed, as per manual which is supplied and presented at the time of the test,
and
seat belts meet BS standards,
and
seta belts fitted with correct nuts'n'bolts;

then: Pass seatbelts.

Everyone happy.

I should have been a Brexit negotiator.

aaronjb
18-05-21, 12:19 PM
Either Pilgrim will have to build cars differently or a compromise of some sort provided to everyone's satisfaction.

I think you can probably delete 'Either' and everything after 'or' - government departments (of any ilk, ours or EU) not known for compromise..

KevinW
18-05-21, 12:42 PM
I think you can probably delete 'Either' and everything after 'or' - government departments (of any ilk, ours or EU) not known for compromise..

I have every faith in a constructive solution being devised at Swansea.

A pint, when we eventually meet, says I'm right. Shake on it ? :)

aaronjb
18-05-21, 01:33 PM
It's a deal .. I've lost track of whether or not we're allowed to shake hands though :lol:

TurboFreak
19-05-21, 10:39 PM
Well I will give it a couple of weeks in hope Pilgrim Motor Sport can sort it out with IVA testers.

John at Pilgrim seems to know a lot of people high up in the system so might get something sorted, if not....

Buy the metal work to make a triangulated and braced frame, cut out existing T bracket mounting from shell and weld to new triangulated framework.

Weld or bolt to chassis.

Fuel tank will need relocating about 5cm further to rear to clear framework.

Cut new hole for fuel filler.

Repair old hole with fibreglass, prepare, primer and paint.

Fit 2 new white stripes.

Job done ... :(

TurboFreak
29-05-21, 10:33 AM
Still no update on the seat belt mounting issue that Pilgrim Motorsport have with IVA examiners and no reply from email to Pilgrim 5 days ago asking for update :mad:

So decided to go ahead and make new support frame to IVA standards, more complicated then I hoped it would be.

To make a support that is triangulated and braced was not too difficult but getting it to fit was tricky.

Basically you can not fit a complete frame that's mounted to chassis as it's simply to wide to fit through the narrow boot aperture, so needs to be made in sections and bolted together in place.

This framework could be one welded piece if fitted prior to putting the bodyshell onto the chassis.

Anyway 2 days later it's done, now need to make new hole for fuel tank filler as tank needs to be reposition to clear the new framework, then repair and paint as required.

If Pilgrim Motorsport do not get their stress test report accepted then this might be what they require on future Pilgrim Sumo Cobra replicas?

KevinW
29-05-21, 06:16 PM
Just seen another guy on the Pilgrim Sumo f/b page had the same problem at Gillingham.
His solution was a forward bracing arrangement in the cockpit.

TurboFreak
30-05-21, 11:03 PM
Just seen another guy on the Pilgrim Sumo f/b page had the same problem at Gillingham.
His solution was a forward bracing arrangement in the cockpit.

The tester at Gillingham did mention he had seen someone do that, maybe the same guy?

I really can't imagine how it could be done with forward triangulation bracing and look any good, and there isn't much room in the cockpit as there is, the triangulated support would need to go outside of seats :confused:

Well bodywork done and painted today, new stripes being fitted Tuesday then just need to refit fuel tank and petrol pump.

Booked in for 7th June for retest

Then fit classic period seats, new carpet, wooden steering wheel, exhaust covers back on, badges back on, wheel centres with dummy spinners back on, fit wind wings and sun visors :rolleyes:

tonym
31-05-21, 09:22 AM
The tester at Gillingham did mention he had seen someone do that, maybe the same guy?

I really can't imagine how it could be done with forward triangulation bracing and look any good, and there isn't much room in the cockpit as there is, the triangulated support would need to go outside of seats :confused:

Well bodywork done and painted today, new stripes being fitted Tuesday then just need to refit fuel tank and petrol pump.

Booked in for 7th June for retest

Then fit classic period seats, new carpet, wooden steering wheel, exhaust covers back on, badges back on, wheel centres with dummy spinners back on, fit wind wings and sun visors :rolleyes:

So, are you saying on an open forum, that anyone can read, that once you've complied with making the vehicle legal you're going to change a lot of the legal things to illegal ones that, if fitted, wouldn't pass IVA? Bit reckless isn't it??

TurboFreak
31-05-21, 09:34 AM
So, are you saying on an open forum, that anyone can read, that once you've complied with making the vehicle legal you're going to change a lot of the legal things to illegal ones that, if fitted, wouldn't pass IVA? Bit reckless isn't it??

You sound like you think testers are stupid, they know only to well what goes on, bit insulting to their intelligence to suggest they don't:rolleyes:

They even advised me that you can buy IVA kits simply used to get a vehicle past the test, they just need to check that anything on vehicle appears permanent at time of being tested.

Pilgrim loan out items such as mirrors simply to enable a pass.

So not reckless, just the real world.

tonym
31-05-21, 09:52 AM
You sound like you think testers are stupid, they know only to well what goes on, bit insulting to their intelligence to suggest they don't:rolleyes:

They even advised me that you can buy IVA kits simply used to get a vehicle past the test, they just need to check that anything on vehicle appears permanent at time of being tested.

Pilgrim loan out items such as mirrors simply to enable a pass.

So not reckless, just the real world.

Hope you're also informing your insurance company that the car will be "not as tested" :p

TurboFreak
31-05-21, 06:28 PM
Hope you're also informing your insurance company that the car will be "not as tested" :p

Yes of course, everyone lets insurance companies know if they fit a spoiler, a badge or change seats, I even advise mine if I fit a different radio. The front indicators had to have the lower half blacked out as too low... so reduced visibility by 50% for the IVA test (stupid but true), so will of course advise them when there changed back as I'm more visible when turning so might get insurance discount:rolleyes:.

skinnymathew
01-06-21, 05:24 PM
Yes of course, everyone lets insurance companies know if they fit a spoiler, a badge or change seats, I even advise mine if I fit a different radio. The front indicators had to have the lower half blacked out as too low... so reduced visibility by 50% for the IVA test (stupid but true), so will of course advise them when there changed back as I'm more visible when turning so might get insurance discount:rolleyes:.

That's a good idea, and a requirement in some of the insurance small print that I've read.

TurboFreak
08-06-21, 09:26 AM
Passed IVA yesterday :D

The examiners are concerned with Pilgrim Motorsports basic seat belt support bracket as it's only fibreglass that holds it into bulkhead of the bodyshell, they are not convinced this is strong enough to hold in 30mph stress test.

They also said if the Pigrim stress test was a TUV test carried out in Germany (which I believe it was) then it would not/should not be recognised at UK IVA tests.

They were very impressed with the triangulated support I fixed into position and bolted to rear chassis either side of petrol tank, they took my photos and their own of this and will use it in there on-going 'discussion' with Pilgrim as they believe this is what they should be fitting into the Cobra Sumo.

KevinW
08-06-21, 09:32 AM
Congratulations - time to get the reg docs off and on the road in a few weeks!
It will be interesting what comes out as a result of this issue.

TurboFreak
08-06-21, 09:35 AM
Just seen another guy on the Pilgrim Sumo f/b page had the same problem at Gillingham.
His solution was a forward bracing arrangement in the cockpit.

They showed me photos of this and it has been done by fixing a triangulated support structure onto the central tunnel between seats.

I think it obviously will work as they passed it, but don't think it would be as strong as my system mounting onto rear chassis.

They also said he is going to box his structure in, so this would be between seats :eek:... not sure how that would look? Where as my system is hidden in boot behind fuel tank.

TurboFreak
08-06-21, 09:41 AM
Congratulations - time to get the reg docs off and on the road in a few weeks!
It will be interesting what comes out as a result of this issue.

Yes trying to find out exactly what I need to get car registered, tester not very helpful on this and said information on Gov DVLA website, still looking.

I actually have a letter dated 19/07/2017 from DVLA to previous owner advising him they need
1) IVA certificate.
2) Licence fee.
3) Completed V55/5 form

But I do not know licence fee and suspect things have changed since 2017?

KevinW
08-06-21, 12:05 PM
There is a related thread on here all about registration.

Grumbleweed
08-06-21, 03:11 PM
Congratulations!

How much for you to make me one then!?!! Do you have any photos/drawings of yours? I'd rather catch this issue before my body goes on.


Passed IVA yesterday :D

The examiners are concerned with Pilgrim Motorsports basic seat belt support bracket as it's only fibreglass that holds it into bulkhead of the bodyshell, they are not convinced this is strong enough to hold in 30mph stress test.

They also said if the Pigrim stress test was a TUV test carried out in Germany (which I believe it was) then it would not/should not be recognised at UK IVA tests.

They were very impressed with the triangulated support I fixed into position and bolted to rear chassis either side of petrol tank, they took my photos and their own of this and will use it in there on-going 'discussion' with Pilgrim as they believe this is what they should be fitting into the Cobra Sumo.

TurboFreak
08-06-21, 10:36 PM
Congratulations!

How much for you to make me one then!?!! Do you have any photos/drawings of yours? I'd rather catch this issue before my body goes on.

Certainly worth doing when body is off, because of width I had to make mine in sections which were put in place and bolted to the drilled/welded nuts on rear of framework, but it could simply be made as one welded unit positioned when bodyshell lowered onto chassis.

Then drill hole through existing Pilgrim frame and bulkhead as shown in red (see photos) and bolt through. Then bolt through rear chassis, again as shown in red.