PDA

View Full Version : I'm new and I've got a Python



Si
05-10-03, 05:22 PM
Hello all,

I've been lurking for quite a while and now I've taken delivery of my chassis I might actually have something to say in future.

It's the first Python chassis from RV Dynamics in the UK and is getting a treated to a 535i manual donor. :)

Rodders
05-10-03, 06:45 PM
"I'M new and I've got a Python"

"LUCKY YOU"{-}

TINKA
05-10-03, 08:11 PM
Hi Si, after all the mud slinging that has been going on in the Kit Car Mags :} :} :} :}, I hope that you will keep us informed on the progress of your build and of any problems you have :sm :sm .Welcome to the forum by the way and hope you enjoy your build :tu :tu :tu :tu

Martin :tu :tu

Si
05-10-03, 08:31 PM
Thanks Martin,

As you can see from the photos, contrary to some reports, the chassis does actually exist :) , it comes in at 100kg and is stiffer than a stiff thing.

The BMW is getting stripped in about a month (want to test the rebuilt engine before stripping it).

Body shell is built and is going in a container in Jan.

SimonP
06-10-03, 12:33 AM
Hi Si.
I was originally going to build the RV Python as I just happened to have a 5-series to use.

I saw the chassis on their stand at Donington this year, even took some pictures of it.
I think they could have done themselves a few favours though, if they'd cleaned up the donor components before fitting them to the chassis.

Also I would have liked to have a look at the body, or a completed car to see how the whole package went together.
Let's see what Exeter brings.

Good luck with your project!

Simon :)

Si
06-10-03, 09:28 AM
They only got the chassis into the country a week before the event and rushed around breakers hunting for bits (and the shocks didn't turn up on time).

The first demo car is nearly complete from the photos I've seen (535 based) and the second one is in the pipeline (with a V12). When they get those over here next year they'll look a lot more credable.

kitcarman
06-10-03, 01:46 PM
Si said… I've taken delivery of my chassis… It's the first Python chassis from RV Dynamics…. contrary to some reports, the chassis does actually exist.

Where are the reports that the CHASSIS doesn’t exist? I’ve seen reports that suggest, correctly according to you, that the CAR doesn’t yet exist.

Are you confused?

Den

robert
06-10-03, 02:04 PM
Yes, very confused, it looks like a picture of a chassis, or is it an optical illusion.

Si
06-10-03, 02:24 PM
>Si said… I've taken delivery of my chassis… It's the first
>Python chassis from RV Dynamics…. contrary to some reports,
>the chassis does actually exist.
>
>Where are the reports that the CHASSIS doesn’t exist? I’ve
>seen reports that suggest, correctly according to you, that
>the CAR doesn’t yet exist.
>
>Are you confused?
>
>Den
>

I'm refering to the article (a while back) in the ongoing magazine slagging where it was suggested that it wasn't possible to build a chassis based on BMW running gear and by implication that the RV Python project lacked any substance.

So no, I'm not confused, and I don't couldn't really give a #### about the public squabble going on (and haven't paid to much attention to the detail). I do find it mildly amusing though.

Confrontational place this.

robert
06-10-03, 02:35 PM
>Confrontational place this.

Only sometimes. Most of us couldn't give a damn regarding the slagging match between the relevant mags.

Si
06-10-03, 02:36 PM
At least I don't have to get into the chevy vs ford debate ;-)

robert
06-10-03, 02:41 PM
Si

The user above comes from the brighton region, so I wouldn't read too much into it. I have a feeling that I know who it is, so will monitor the account as "troll" accounts are not welcome here.

kitcarman
06-10-03, 02:53 PM
Robert,
I think perhaps you’ve misunderstood my point.

Nobody has denied the existence of the Python CHASSIS.
There was one on display as long ago as March 2002 at Mr Filby’s Stafford show. I believe it was exported to Sri Lanka and has now belatedly spawned 3 offspring. The first of which is now evidently in the hands of Si.

My question to Si concerned his words “contrary to some reports, the chassis does actually exist.”. I’ve simply asked him where I can find “some reports” asserting that the Python CHASSIS (as opposed to vehicle) does not exist.

Note. Even if there were such reports (and I don’t believe there were), then provided they were published prior to Sunday, it appears they’d have been correct given that Si says he has “the first” Python chassis.

Note2. Don’t you find it curious that Si is raising this matter rather than RV Dynamics or whoever it is at their advertised address (1 Howard Rd, Reigate)?

Flooky
06-10-03, 03:05 PM
Oh gawd... here we go again.
:-)

>Robert,
>I think perhaps you’ve misunderstood my point.
>
>Nobody has denied the existence of the Python CHASSIS.
>There was one on display as long ago as March 2002 at Mr
>Filby’s Stafford show. I believe it was exported to Sri Lanka
>and has now belatedly spawned 3 offspring. The first of which
>is now evidently in the hands of Si.
>
> My question to Si concerned his words “contrary to some
>reports, the chassis does actually exist.”. I’ve simply asked
>him where I can find “some reports” asserting that the Python
>CHASSIS (as opposed to vehicle) does not exist.
>
>Note. Even if there were such reports (and I don’t believe
>there were), then provided they were published prior to
>Sunday, it appears they’d have been correct given that Si says
>he has “the first” Python chassis.
>
>Note2. Don’t you find it curious that Si is raising this
>matter rather than RV Dynamics or whoever it is at their
>advertised address (1 Howard Rd, Reigate)?
>
>

Mike
06-10-03, 03:09 PM
robert
Are you saying what i think you are saying.
Mike
Ahhh...I see the screw-up fairy has visited us again...{-} {-} {-}

Si
06-10-03, 03:16 PM
Hmmm? Is my existance being questioned?

Tricky one that. As far as I know I exist. Hard one to argue.

I'll assume I do exist for the moment until someone can prove to me that I don't.

robert
06-10-03, 03:17 PM
>Note. Even if there were such reports (and I don’t believe
>there were), then provided they were published prior to
>Sunday, it appears they’d have been correct given that Si says
>he has “the first” Python chassis.

There has been a lot of supposition in the relevant mags regarding the validity of the various kits which are being marketed, which casts doubt on the actual manufacturer, whether they be linked to a mag or not. Surely we shouldn't be dragging that debate over here, as it bears no relation to us really.

>Note2. Don’t you find it curious that Si is raising this
>matter rather than RV Dynamics or whoever it is at their
>advertised address (1 Howard Rd, Reigate)?

Maybe Si has been a bit miffed at the adverse press, these things are very emotive.

So, are you actually Den or are you someone else?

robert
06-10-03, 03:18 PM
Si.

No, you exist as does your chassis. :tu :tu

I think therefore I am, so if I don't think therefore am I not???? :P :P :P

robert
06-10-03, 03:19 PM
>robert
>Are you saying what i think you are saying.
>Mike
>Ahhh...I see the screw-up fairy has visited us again...{-} {-}
>{-}

Maybe, we will see.

Si
06-10-03, 03:25 PM
>No, you exist as does your chassis. :tu :tu

Are you sure? I'm starting to wonder myself. It would explain a few things...

Yeah, the adverse publicity did piss me off a bit at the time (as I had a pile of photos from the week before showing graphically the opposite of what was in print) but now I understand the politics it's just an amusing footnote. Not that I wanted to get involved in an argument about this... especially now my existance is in question :P

kitcarman
06-10-03, 03:36 PM
Robert said “I have a feeling that I know who it is, so will monitor the account as "troll"”

By all means monitor my posts but not for that reason. I’ve made no attempt to disguise the fact that I’m “kitcarman” as published in Kit Car magazine and as used openly in all my electronic correspondence. For the benefit of the forum, my name is Den Tanner and I am the owner of the company that publishes Kit Car magazine. Until recently I also ran Pilgrim Cars. In both these capacities I believe I can contribute to informed debate (from both my experience and intimate knowledge) on this forum – if I’m welcome. If not, you may ‘unplug’ my input, but please do so for the right reasons.

My question to Si was and remains a simple one. Where does Kit Car say that the Python chassis doesn’t (or didn’t) exist? I don’t believe that’s a confrontational question.

Si answered “I'm refering to the article (a while back) in the ongoing magazine slagging where it was suggested that it wasn't possible to build a chassis based on BMW running gear and by implication that the RV Python project lacked any substance.”

My answer to that is that there was no such article. What is described as a ‘slagging match’ started in the May 2003 issue of Kit Car and doesn’t say anything like what Si says that it said.

If you want to know what I actually have said and have to add then I’d like opportunity to explain myself in detail and in perfectly reasoned and mature terms.

So do you wish to dismiss me as a troll or would you like to hear the thruth? I’m easy!

Den.

Si
06-10-03, 03:41 PM
I'll see if I can find a copy a scan it in for you :) I think its kicking around somewhere...

Good mag by the way, I used to buy every issue.

robert
06-10-03, 04:22 PM
>Robert said “I have a feeling that I know who it is, so will
>monitor the account as "troll"”
>
>So do you wish to dismiss me as a troll or would you like to
>hear the thruth? I’m easy!
>
>Den.
>

Den

In that case, I apologise.

The AUP of the Forum says the following regarding trolling.

6. "Trolling", or makings posts with the sole intention of creating problems on the forums is obviously against the forum guidelines. This includes registering an alternate ID for the sole purpose of creating problems on the forums. "Troll ID's" will be locked immediately and permanently, and can be locked without notification.

We have had a number of alternate IDs created on the forum which can be attributed to a different user who hails from the same location, hence my initial scepticism.

kitcarman
06-10-03, 05:20 PM
Robert,
I’m glad the “trolling” issue has been resolved. Dealing with two points you raised in your previous post.

Robert said “Surely we shouldn't be dragging that debate over here”

You might well be right, but Si has brought this matter into ‘your domain’ and whether unwittingly or otherwise, or for better or worse, he’s asserted that Kit Car magazine has published what it did not in fact publish. Misunderstandings such as these have led to allegations on other forums, and by clear implication on this one, that my actions have been “pathetic”, “childish” and/or “unprofessional”. I merely seek, through a reasoned analytical approach, to get the record put straight.

Robert goes on “as it bears no relation to us really.”

I disagree profoundly. Members of your forum have an interest in Cobra kits. If part of the press that deals with such kits is either “pathetic, childish and/or unprofessional” OR is “biased, misleading and/or dishonest” OR if all, or only some, these things be true, I believe that at least some members will be interested. Particularly those in the market for a new kit.

Robert concludes “Maybe Si has been a bit miffed at the adverse press, these things are very emotive.”

I have plenty of sympathy for Si, and wish to assure him that I bear no animosity toward him. He’s another brave sole who’s building a Cobra kit. I’m all for that. Personally, I believe he’s been unwise in purchasing a kit that is untested and incomplete, but that’s an entirely different issue. Or is it? because, if you read what has in fact been printed in Kit Car, it amounts to a warning concerning such matters. In looking at what’s actually been said there’s opportunity for hurts to be mended, reputations restored and a reasoned approach to return.

Finally, dealing with some of the other posts on this thread, it seems that many have already made their minds up about me. All I ask is for a fair hearing in temperate terms. I don’t understand some of the comments such as the “screw-up fairy has visited us again...”, since I have never posted here before.

It’s over to you. Do I get a fair hearing or do you wish the forum to remain ignorant as to my side of the story?

Den.
PS. Apology accepted - I know all about what misunderstandings can do!

Happy Jim
06-10-03, 05:42 PM
Den,

We are a very emotive bunch however,

“screw-up fairy has visited us again...”, There's nothing personal in that it's his autosignature
>
>Do I get a fair hearing or do you wish the
>forum to remain ignorant as to my side of the story?

No hearing required from my side, I gave up buying both mags because of the bickering (rightly or wrongly).

Si's made his deceision and the next few months is all that is required now to see how things go, whichever way it does fly Si will always be assured of help from this site! (and maybe the odd ribbing if he's up for it)

Rgds

Jim

TINKA
06-10-03, 05:42 PM
Hi Dan, I can't speak for others but some of the comments that are being said are not helped by you having pictures of a certain person in your Mag with a Pinocchio nose added, now this I do find childish.

There always has to be a first person to attempt to build a kit, and to as it is a good kit or not I think you will find that a lot of people on this site will be quite interested to find out.

Personally I have no problems with you being on the site, as much as you like, as long as you don't try and bring your arguments with that other person to the site as this is not really the place for that and I think we all know a Little about some of the things that have gone on between the two of you.

Finally as far as the comment about " the screw up fairy has visited us again" this is how this person has always signed of to all his posts and has no implication to you at all.

Martin :tu :tu :tu

tonym
06-10-03, 05:47 PM
Den some very interesting and salient points, the phrase "the screw up fairy has visited us again" are the final words/comments on all Mike's posts and do not refer to yourself :tu

fcukruss
06-10-03, 05:50 PM
. "Trolling", or makings posts with the sole intention of creating problems on the forums is obviously against the forum guidelines. This includes registering an alternate ID for the sole purpose of creating problems on the forums. "Troll ID's" will be locked immediately and permanently, and can be locked without notification.


please dont lock me up robert



russ;)

fcukruss
06-10-03, 05:54 PM
den

whatch out for eric


russ

TINKA
06-10-03, 06:04 PM
And what ever you do don't start "Cobra Kev" off x( x( x( x(

:OT :OT :OT Martin

nbracken
06-10-03, 06:33 PM
Si, this forum is a great way of getting help. I am concerned that the post you kicked off has not given you so much help yet so I will try and begin to address - it really is a great way of asking for impartial advice and I have found it invaluable over the years.

I have an "old" Python built in 91-94 that runs very happily on it's Jag gear and has now done may miles - you can see it in the UK from time to time or at most of teh major European events - and thanks to Peter Jones it took pride of place on teh front cover of the last edition of Snake Torque - thanks Peter. I can see from the pics that they have made many changes to teh chassis which I trust will make it better. I understand that they have not made many (or any?) revisions to the body which was actually very good.

I don't know whether you have a build manual (I do have one for the old car) or whether you have any questions, but as the build progresses feel free to contact myself (or others) who have the "old" Python and where there are similarities I will be very happy to offer all the help I can.

Good luck with the build and keep us posted with photos.

By the way do you know if RV are offering stainless covers for teh front of the rear wings? I bought alloy 10 years ago and they are now wearing. Wish I had bought stainless at the outset....

Regards

Si
06-10-03, 06:40 PM
>Robert,
>I’m glad the “trolling” issue has been resolved. Dealing with
>two points you raised in your previous post.
>
>Robert said “Surely we shouldn't be dragging that debate over
>here”
>
>You might well be right, but Si has brought this matter into
>‘your domain’ and whether unwittingly or otherwise, or for
>better or worse, he’s asserted that Kit Car magazine has
>published what it did not in fact publish. Misunderstandings
>such as these have led to allegations on other forums, and by
>clear implication on this one, that my actions have been
>“pathetic”, “childish” and/or “unprofessional”. I merely
>seek, through a reasoned analytical approach, to get the
>record put straight.
>
>Robert goes on “as it bears no relation to us really.”
>
>I disagree profoundly. Members of your forum have an interest
>in Cobra kits. If part of the press that deals with such kits
>is either “pathetic, childish and/or unprofessional” OR is
>“biased, misleading and/or dishonest” OR if all, or only some,
>these things be true, I believe that at least some members
>will be interested. Particularly those in the market for a
>new kit.
>
>Robert concludes “Maybe Si has been a bit miffed at the
>adverse press, these things are very emotive.”
>
>I have plenty of sympathy for Si, and wish to assure him that
>I bear no animosity toward him. He’s another brave sole who’s
>building a Cobra kit. I’m all for that. Personally, I
>believe he’s been unwise in purchasing a kit that is untested
>and incomplete, but that’s an entirely different issue. Or is
>it? because, if you read what has in fact been printed in Kit
>Car, it amounts to a warning concerning such matters. In
>looking at what’s actually been said there’s opportunity for
>hurts to be mended, reputations restored and a reasoned
>approach to return.
>
> Finally, dealing with some of the other posts on this thread,
>it seems that many have already made their minds up about me.
>All I ask is for a fair hearing in temperate terms. I don’t
>understand some of the comments such as the “screw-up fairy
>has visited us again...”, since I have never posted here
>before.
>
>It’s over to you. Do I get a fair hearing or do you wish the
>forum to remain ignorant as to my side of the story?
>
>Den.
>PS. Apology accepted - I know all about what misunderstandings
>can do!

Hi Den,

Looks like we got off on the wrong foot. My throw away reference was to the war of word in the press and wasn't designed to piss you off (I didn't even mention your magazine!), the (humorous!) comment was just apt considering the kit I've bought. For your reference the article I was referring to is on page 104 of July's issue. I won't quote it as I don't care about any of this and never intended to start an argument.

Si.

Si
06-10-03, 06:57 PM
Thanks Nigel, I'd kind of hoped for a post like yours...

The chassis is all new as I understand it but the body molds are modified versions of the originals.

I know a range of accessories are in the pipline (I've got some nudge bars already) so I guess some covers will appear eventually.

rocket
06-10-03, 07:16 PM
>. "Trolling", or makings posts with the sole intention of
>creating problems on the forums is obviously against the forum
>guidelines. This includes registering an alternate ID for the
>sole purpose of creating problems on the forums. "Troll ID's"
>will be locked immediately and permanently, and can be locked
>without notification.
>
>
>please dont lock me up robert
>
>
>
>russ;)

So is fcukruss and eric the same person?

kitcarman
06-10-03, 08:36 PM
Folks,
Now that we all know who I am and that I’m not the Troll known as the “screw up fairy”, perhaps I can state my position in clear terms by addressing the points you’ve raised.

Si said “Looks like we got off on the wrong foot. My throw away reference. . . wasn't designed to piss you off.”

I fully accept you word Si, and I’m not trying to p155 you off either.

Nigel B said “Good luck with the build. . .”

I’m not a Philistine and join with Nigel B in wishing Si Good luck.

Happy Jim said “I gave up buying both mags because of the bickering (rightly or wrongly).”

I think that’s sad Jim, especially if you took that decision before May this year, prior to which there were no attacks from my direction. There were of course plenty coming the other way which had a devastating effect on me.
I will ask these rhetorical questions. Are you sure it was the conflict that turned you off? Or, were there other reasons?

Tinka said “… some of the comments that are being said are not helped by you having pictures of a certain person in your Mag with a Pinocchio nose added, now this I do find childish.”

Others have similarly observed. My position is that I’d made very clear in moderate tones that Kit Car was “The UK’s Top Selling”. Despite this Which Kit? appeared to me to be getting a disproportionate number of classified advertisements. I concluded that it’s broadly similar claims were being believed to my cost. I took my complaint to the ASA who ruled in my favour that Which Kit? should stop making such claims. It didn’t. It turned out that the ASA can only stop misleading advertising with the publisher’s assistance. Which Kit? being both publisher and advertiser meant that the ASA failed. I had to find another way.
The Pinocchio image was the result. What does it say? Merely that you cannot believe the boldly printed claims. It worked. One month after publishing this picture there were substantial reductions in Which Kit?’s classifieds. Two months after, Which Kit? announced that it would run classifieds for 4 months instead of 2. This third month Which Kit? has all but halved its classified advertising prices. My estimate is that roughly 30 advertisers moved from his to mine. That’s about £900 in my pocket each month (and £900 out of his). I don’t think that’s childish – sorry. It goes further, in that classifieds attracts both readers and trade advertisers. It’s a measure of the magazines true position.

Tinka said “… don't try and bring your arguments with that other person to the site as this is not really the place for that and I think we all know a Little about some of the things that have gone on between the two of you.”

In an earlier post I said that for many of you, this is where you’ll find the truth concerning the press coverage of your favourite car. Having said this, I have no desire to bring my arguments here, save to ask you to look and see what I’ve actually said and perhaps understand the motive behind my words. Not just in relation to Python but in general terms. I believe that if you looked closely you’ll discover that many of your present perceptions of me are jaundiced.

I am actually a kit car man.

Den.

fcukruss
06-10-03, 08:45 PM
den

lighten up
you are starting to sound another member of who`s name i wont mention,but he`s not very popular on here.

i feel another 200 post coming on!!!

over to you eric

ps eric and russ are not the same person.
united eric and myself stand,devided we do just as good a job!

russ:P

kitcarman
06-10-03, 09:25 PM
Russ,
I am cool actually.

My defending the allegation that my advertising strategy was “childish” needed some explanation I think.

I came on with all guns blazing because I misunderstood Si’s motives. He’s explained himself and I’m happy. Other misunderstandings have since been cleared up leaving me as cool as a cucumber.

If there are further misunderstandings then I’ll be pleased to explain.

{-}Screw{-}Up{-}Fairy.{-}

Only Joking (Den - really)

kayjayd
06-10-03, 09:39 PM
Den,

I'm a newbie to this forum and to the kit car game as a whole (first purchase of both mags in question being July this year and no Cob kit purchased yet).

I must express my absolute dismay at your ads in the mag slagging the other publication and it's editor. Have you ever heard of taking he moral high ground?

I have NO knowledge of the obvious past dispute between the two mags and the two individuals but what I do know from years of being in business is that you're not doing yourself any favors by printing numerous derogative captions of your adversary in this dispute.

I find both mags very informative in my very early days of research and will continue to buy both, but I must admit your "ads" leave a sour taste in my mouth. For the moment I can skip over them but they may become too much to stomach.

I don't know the facts and I don't wish to know them so PLEASE DON’T try and explain them. All I want is a source of top info on kit cars and Cobs specifically. I'm not interested in your fights and I'm sure many others aren't too.

Chill out and take the moral high ground. If you're the best as you keep stating then you'll will the fight anyway, if you're not you'll loose.

Please take as friendly asvise from the bloke on the street, I'm your readership.

TINKA
06-10-03, 10:27 PM
Completely agree and well put.

Sorry Dan but your animosity comes across so loudly in all your replies, perhaps that is what is putting people off.I am a reader of your mag too and I am sure if there was a vote on the forum you would see that we would all rather this stuff was left out of the mags. Before you reply to this I know it takes 2 and I must say any publication about Cobras which misses out one of the main makes is questionable.

Martin :tu :tu

PeteV
06-10-03, 10:36 PM
Just can't resist adding my 2p here.

OK, yes the inter-magazine 'slagging' has perhaps run it's course & would best be put to bed, but before anyone criticises Kit Car for being OTT please recall that Filby went out actively looking for anti-Pilgrim 'whingers' by running his 'special survey' adds for months. Now that really pi55ed me off as a Sumo owner as it's the kind of crap that not only has an affect on the manufacturer but also acts directly to undermine the image of the car & hence devalue it (literally). Cheers Peter, mate ?! Now if thats not sufficient to provoke someone into making a pretty powerful return 'gesture' , then I don't know what is. Anyway, I'll stop there as I really do believe nows the time to put this lot finally to rest.


Pete

PS. Nice little car the Mk II Sumo !

PeteV
06-10-03, 11:02 PM
Oh...almost forgot..a couple more points :

1) 'ello Princess !!! - nearly missed the opportunity
:tu :tu :tu

2) Since when has sticking to the original opening thread question ever remotely bothered any of you lot


{-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-}


Pete.

kitcarman
06-10-03, 11:17 PM
Kayjayd said “. . .I must express my absolute dismay at your ads. . .. I do know from years of being in business is that you're not doing yourself any favors by printing numerous derogative captions. . . For the moment I can skip over them but they may become too much to stomach.”

Your view as summarized above is not unique. The ads to which you refer are in the November issue and shall not be repeated thereafter. On the PistonHeads forum I explained the circumstances of their publication and admitted that I “lost it”.

“All I want is a source of top info on kit cars and Cobs specifically. . .”

Others on this forum will attest to the disgraceful lack of accuracy in Which Kit? report’s about one particular Cobra in the past. If you’re not concerned about that then I think you should be concerned about ongoing inaccurate reports.

“If you're the best as you keep stating then you'll will the fight anyway, if you're not you'll loose.”

It’s not a matter of being best or worst. My complaint concerns truth and lies. In my view they are completely different matters.

”Please take as friendly advise from the bloke on the street, I'm your readership.”

I do take your advice in a good sprit and as I’ve already said the ads to which you refer are in the process of being removed. Full details can be found in the following links (I know that you’re not interested, but others might be).

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=54954&f=30&h=0

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=59118&f=30&h=0

As I said before, my interest is in seeing a level playing field for all Cobra replica manufacturers and that in part means being able to read trustworthy ads and articles.

Tinka adds “Sorry Den but your animosity comes across so loudly in all your replies, perhaps that is what is putting people off.”

Considering what’s happened to me, are you really surprised that there is animosity on my part? Having said this I’ve been VERY CAREFUL to be accurate in view of the history of litigation. I note that PeteV has a more understanding attitude resulting from the fact that he, to a much lesser degree, was effected by the hate campaign waged against me.

PeteV’s 2p worth “. . .before anyone criticises Kit Car for being OTT please recall that Filby went out actively looking for anti-Pilgrim 'whingers' by running his 'special survey' adds for months. . . Now if thats not sufficient to provoke someone into making a pretty powerful return 'gesture' , then I don't know what is.”

I’ll add only the fact that what you read in Kit Car is true, whereas Which Kit? was forced to apologize in the High Court for the lies it printed.

I’ve admitted to going OTT. I’ve said the campaign is being wound down. All I’m asking for is the kind of understanding expressed by PeteV.

I think I’m cool. I did loose my teddy, but I’ve got it back now.

Finally PeteV said “Since when has sticking to the original opening thread question ever remotely bothered any of you lot”.

Point of order! There was no opening question!

Den.
Note. My use of the word "lie" in this posting is an expression of my opinion and shouldnot neccessarily be accepted as fact.

TINKA
06-10-03, 11:28 PM
OK point taken Den I will say no more.

Martin :tu :tu :tu :tu

TINKA
06-10-03, 11:28 PM
OK point taken Den I will say no more.

Martin :tu :tu :tu :tu

kitcarman
06-10-03, 11:48 PM
>OK point taken Den I will say no more.
>
>Martin :tu :tu :tu :tu

Thanks Martin,
But my purpose isn't to stifle criticism. I've been a silly boy, I know that, and I deserve some stick.

I didn't serve myself when I said nothing for 5 years, and I haven't served myself well in making such a loud noise in the last 5 issues.

In explaining the background as to why my anger exploded publicly, I hope to make friends. If only by demonstrating that I'm only human - just like all of you.

Den:}

Miket
06-10-03, 11:59 PM
Nice one Den, good to have you onboard.

:tu :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu

osgood
07-10-03, 08:35 AM
Contrary Mary

NO POST;-) Eric

Mike
07-10-03, 09:26 AM
My gosh,
admittance and apologies from Rob and Den all in the same thread. OK Andy where's yours?

Mike
Ahhh...I see the screw-up fairy has visited us again...{-} {-}

PS The screw up fairy refers to all of us who have had to build our cars three times. eg "I could have sworn it was 320mm not 230mm"

robert
07-10-03, 10:21 AM
OK, lets bring this one back on track, (fat chance)

Si

Well done with the purchase, you will find a lot of very very knowledgeable people on this site who aim to help, whilst also taking the proverbial.

We have suspension experts, gearbox experts, engine experts and expert experts. {-} {-} {-} {-}

There are no stupid questions here, as we have all asked them before. Hopefully the forum will mean you don'r repeat the mistakes 99% of us made, and therefore save yourself both time and money.

Lastly, nice to see you here.

robert
07-10-03, 10:31 AM
>Robert,
>I’m glad the “trolling” issue has been resolved. Dealing with
>two points you raised in your previous post.
>
>Den.
>PS. Apology accepted - I know all about what misunderstandings
>can do!

Den

I think you do a cracking magazine. It has featured my car in it twice. :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu

In all honesty, I don't tend to buy either of the mags, unless there is something which specifically interests me.

On a different note, how have online Ezines such as Totalkitcar affected your sales, or has the additional visibility to the general public increased your reader numbers?

skid
07-10-03, 10:33 AM
Den,

I know I have come in late on this thread and you all seem to have said sorry to each other and buried the hatchet but......

You have only been here 5 minutes and have embarked on monster mailing and envolved in tiffs and misunderstandings/arguements already!!!

Now to be honest I have every sympathy with your clashes with Mr F and I think he's a w*nker, but I want you to do me a favour and never mention it on this forum. I have given up on the kit car forum on Pistonheads as you have more or less dominated it in the few weeks or months you have been on there. I actually felt disappointed when I saw your login come up as a new member. Nothing personal as if I met you I would like to buy you a pint but I'm now immune to the whole thing and quite frankly not interested.

You mentioned publically on PH your dealings with Mr F brought you down and made you quite depressed and/or mentally ill. I take this seriously and you have my sympathy but I feel you are still in some kind of recovery from this and using the various forums (with the best of intentions) to help you redress this balance in your mind. Whilst recovery is vital, this method may not be it. I'm concerened you have too much time on your hands and are living in chatrooms/forums. Mr F on the otherhand isn't conspicuous by his absence.... he's obviously getting on with business and too busy!

Please take a chill pill, take the moral high ground (as another member has said) and move on in your life drawing a line under this sorry episode. Take some Personal Counselling to help you put things in perspective. I have 3 friends who are Counsellors and knowing how they help people I can thoroughly recomend it.

Either that or shoot him! {-}

Den, please don't let me make you feel unwelcome. Just join in, keep it brief (for christ sake please!!!) and keep it informative as I'm sure you have plenty to offer. Until you settle in and know the characters/humour/banter try and keep it unemotive and informative and we will all respect you much more. You don't need to pick up and retort on everything that is said.

Sorry it was al a bit:OT but had to say my bit and hope that we can consign it all to history.

End of subject.

Sincere regards

Mark

Si
07-10-03, 11:35 AM
>Lastly, nice to see you here.

Thanks.

I'm glad there's help on hand, my background is 2-stroke race bikes rather than cars so that extra set of wheels and those funny 2 extra strokes may cause me some confusion :)

At least my first post I made an impact....

Cheers,

russell_ram
07-10-03, 12:02 PM
'2-stroke race bikes'

Ah, TZ350, now there was an engine in it's day.

Russ

ps and welcome to the forum !!!

Neil O
07-10-03, 12:42 PM
I agree entirely Mark, well said!!:D
Cheers,
Neil.

COBRA KEV01
07-10-03, 02:57 PM
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm i wonder!:-) :-) :9 :tu

kitcarman
07-10-03, 03:01 PM
Dear Mark (Skid),

I’ve noted every word you’ve said.

It’s not my intention to bombard this forum with facts as I did on PistonHeads, because they are now recorded in those threads.

Your comment regarding the length of postings is noted. However I’m certain that you’ll recognize that it’s an awful lot easier (briefer) to make an assertion than it is to respond. Even harder when there’s an element of truthfulness to ‘get around’.

I entered PistonHeads amid hostility, but if you go back you’ll find that my time was fruitful. The dust has settled. I’ve earned a great deal of respect from the vast majority on that forum. Discussion is now entirely fruitful, less frequent and not at all heated. Opinions of Kit Car magazine seem to have changed very much for the better. I’m in fact receiving subscriptions from those people.

I believe that only a clear understanding as to what’s actually been said and the reasons behind it could have achieved that. Here it seemed that ther were similar misunderstandings, but they were very soon cleared up. My point is that there’s no argument here and therefore no reason for you to be concerned.

I hope this post hasn’t been too long.

Den.:tu

COBRA KEV01
07-10-03, 03:09 PM
I'M listening and I'm watching you closely tinka, i know where you live you know!:-; :tu

osgood
07-10-03, 03:24 PM
Contrary Mary

Well Russ well said Sir, full marks on that score. have been looking at the comments, not deliberately Trolling you understand.

Never met Den personally, but being a Viper owner (for better or worse!)I am acquainted with Ken Cook fairly well and could tell you some stories but perhaps not here!

Met PF the other week end at Bassingbourn, in spite of what I had heard an read, did not seem to be a bad chap; so I guess we will see in due course?

Eric;-)

osgood
07-10-03, 04:00 PM
Contrary Mary
#
What do you wonder Kev; BORN TO BE A NICE BLOKE:D Eric

Miket
07-10-03, 04:06 PM
>hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm i wonder!:-) :-) :9 :tu

Your wrong Kev, he is the person he says he is, believe me.

Anyway, the person your thinking about couldn't post so eloquently

osgood
07-10-03, 04:16 PM
Contrary Mary

Mike, not to much praise now he may get beside-himself with glee!! Eric;-)

skid
07-10-03, 05:12 PM
Den,

Glad you took it on the chin. I'm one of your respondants on PH and enjoyed the free mag. Thank you. So now you know where I live! ;-)

As I said lets move on and end the subject, no more justifications needed.

Enjoy the forum, I do.

Regards

Skid-Mark

:tu

osgood
07-10-03, 05:27 PM
Contrary Mary

Rob, may I permitted to put the question forward: Does this chassis bear any resemblance to the original U/A Python, perhaps Nigel Brackenbury or Nick of Thames Valley lot could answer this question?? Eric

osgood
07-10-03, 07:12 PM
Contrary Mary

Rob, would that be Cobretti Auto track another mate of DT'S

robert
07-10-03, 08:49 PM
>
>Contrary Mary
>
>Rob, would that be Cobretti Auto track another mate of DT'S

Eric

Sorry, you've lost me there.

COBRA KEV01
07-10-03, 08:53 PM
MikeT,
MY COBRA IS IN FOR MOT TOMMOROW AT 430 I WILL BE ROUND FOR TEA AND CAKES MATE.:tu :tu :tu :tu

COBRA KEV01
07-10-03, 09:00 PM
ROBERT
"There are no stupid questions here, as we have all asked them before."

Call my a trouble maker, but what if i asked if it was cool to put a v6 or a pinto engine in a cobra, would that qualify as a stupid question????{-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} :Y

COBRA KEV01
07-10-03, 09:02 PM
Osgood
I hear you are coming down to this neck of the woods soon.
Mine will be a pint of best mate!
mike told me but i forgot,what day was it???

tonym
07-10-03, 09:13 PM
personally i'd like to be on the side if we could ever get mr tanner and mr philby on our chat room together!
eric and kev would eat their hearts out{-}

dave
07-10-03, 10:01 PM
Welcome Den..............When i can get a word in edge ways.


All:- If anyone knows the UK Cobra replica market and how it works then Den Tanner does.
A very good person to have as an active member on this forum.

Den.
Thanks for making a Cobra replica affordable and buildable at a time when i thought that i could never afford one. The build of my first Sumo has led to a portfolio of over 70 kit car builds to date and the most rewarding work i have ever done. Thanks M8!

Dave Brookes, Stoke on Trent.
:tu

robert
07-10-03, 10:06 PM
>ROBERT
>"There are no stupid questions here, as we have all asked them
>before."
>
>Call my a trouble maker, but what if i asked if it was cool to
>put a v6 or a pinto engine in a cobra, would that qualify as a
>stupid question????{-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} :Y
>

That isn't a stupid question, however you must be prepared for some varied answers.

:tu :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu

fcukruss
07-10-03, 10:53 PM
hmmmmmmmmmmm
let me think!
{-}

osgood
08-10-03, 08:28 AM
Contrary Mary

Hi Kev,yes Oct 25th Saturday, Coming down with a colleague who has recently finished a Mirage and he has a test drive booked for mid day with this companies new project based on a Rover 200 or 400. www.marlincars.co.uk Looks good!

Based at Tiverton, thought it was worth a look, guests welcome so we could meet up, but don't knock me around to much darling! Eric

;-)

osgood
08-10-03, 09:18 AM
Contrary Mary

Tony, re my recent conversation with Peter Filby, he has no computer and does not like them, he would rather rely on the old post box! I did explain that the way things are going that won't be around much longer.

I did brush on the subject of car mag's however, and the word KIT CAR came tumbling out of my silly mouth!!!! At that point he started shaking and changed colour, but recovered some minutes latter thank God!:) Eric.

osgood
08-10-03, 09:29 AM
Contrary Mary

Rob, >subject back on track< Auto Track. There was a article in Kit Car some years back featuring this off spring of the Viper, It was entitled Back On Track: Sorry Rob I've gone off the rails on this one, must be Andie's lack of input these days Eric.;-)

osgood
08-10-03, 09:34 AM
Contrary Mary

Will it make to the test station okay Kev? What do yer recon:D Eric.

kitcarman
08-10-03, 06:52 PM
You Plonkas!!!!

Visit this site and tell me it isn’t Fibs.

www.cobra535.co.uk


At the very least, tell me that Si doesn’t have a vested interest.

It’s got Fibs’ hallmark running through it as clearly as a stick of Brighton rock.

Last week it was Mr Financier. Now it’s Si. Will the real RV Dynamics stand up. I’d say the above site IS the real “Monty” the “Python” site.

Gotcha!!!!!

Den.

robert
08-10-03, 07:11 PM
Whois Record:
Domain Name.......cobra535.co.uk
Owner Name.........James Boulton
Registrar...............UK2NET
Last update..........2003-09-15
Name Server 1.....ultra27.uk2net.net.
Name Server 2.....ultra28.uk2net.net.


Who’s We?
The we is mostly the three of us:
Si (me) – I’m the one with the garage, workshop and the donor. Handy with a spanner.
Jim – always wanted to build a kit car and a long time Cobra fan. Handy with a spanner, electrics and electronics.
Dave – just kind of likes the idea of building a car from scratch. Another handy spanner man, a world-renowned expert on fiberglass production techniques (I #### you not), and he’s obsessive at measuring things, unlike Jim or me (which can only be good).
And… we have a secret weapon in the form of a professional that we can fall back on…
Chris – professional mechanic, sprayer and garage owner. He’ll be the technical consultant on the project as well as doing the spray job (although he may not be fully aware of this just yet!)

I would have thought James would have got a mention for building the website, quite a bit of work has gone into it.

osgood
08-10-03, 07:40 PM
Contrary Mary

Be a bit careful Denice who you are calling plonkers! Eric

kitcarman
08-10-03, 07:47 PM
Contrary Mary, give us a kiss then!

But if you’re really Eric, Denice will give you one!

Maybe a kiss too!

Den – yours truly.

rocket
08-10-03, 08:16 PM
So you are SELLING the car you haven't "taken possesion" of a chassis!

Si.

Rgds

Roger

kitcarman
08-10-03, 08:27 PM
Question for Si.

Is Si an abbreviation for Simon or Simpleton?

Den{-}

We know who I am. Who are you? {-}

osgood
08-10-03, 09:29 PM
Contrary Mary

Any time you grease ball

dave jenkins
08-10-03, 10:39 PM
:OT Den,
I'm a KC subscriber and Sumo builder. Last week I thumbed and bought a copy of WK, only because there was an article on Tony's new Speedster.
I was suprised to find on page 14 that the ad for "Cobra Replicas" the book, as mentioned in this thread, does include in the list of contents along with the likes of Dax, GD, Python, etc, the Pilgrim Sumo. Has this been included in the book since you stated that it was not?
Page 31 carried a full page ad for both the new Speedster and the Sumo. The Speedster featured on the front cover and Mr F. gave it a positive write up in the "Briefing" section. I find all this very strange. Whatever next, a Chevy Sumo getting a feature spread?
Wk is improving after loosing the plot for a time
Time to move on Den or you run the risk of comming second. :OT :OT

kitcarman
08-10-03, 11:19 PM
Dave,
Come on please. Be accurate!
Only Fibs (or Si) knew what was in the book prior to Donnington where is was launched. I only had the adverts to go on. The exact words printed in Kit Car read:-

“Which Kit? is advertising a book. The ad (below) appeared twice in the Which (we don’t repeat ads) Kit? May issue and twice again in its June issue. The guide fiasco is repeated. Down with existing Pilgrim – we love hypothetical Python all over again. Is this really helping Which Kit? to “Build a future for British kit cars”?

I will point out that the ad listed the book’s content. Pilgrim was absent. I’d invite you to conclude that what’s written in kit car is spot-on, 100% accurate. That ad was in print BEFORE the book came out. Now that it's out and does contain a Pilgrim article that assertion won't be repeated. Another job done!

Dealing with the other point. For 4 months I’ve been embarrassing Fibs with his bias which is plain for all to see. My campaign has caused Fibs to allow Tony (new Pilgrim owner) to advertise and Fibs has indeed featured a Pilgrim product (favorably) for the first time in over 5 years.

The fact that that Fibs modified the content of his book, allows Tony to advertise and is now featuring Pilgrim products is a measure of the success of my campaign.

Finally, haven’t you noticed massive improvements in Kit Car over the past 6 months and there are more to come.

I’m on the case – honest.

Den.

Miket
08-10-03, 11:41 PM
Come on chaps its getting a trifle boring this thread, chill out and have a look at this lovely tree in my garden.

x( x( x( x( x( x( x( x( x( x( x( x( x(

kitcarman
08-10-03, 11:52 PM
Dave,
I’ve re-read your message and my reply.
Just want to assure you that I didn’t mean it to read as harshly as it comes over.
I can see that your question is a reasonable one.
My answer, in a nutshell is that I only said that the ad for the book is distorted.
It seems that my ad concerning the book ad was effective.
Den.

Karlos
09-10-03, 01:32 AM
Please god make it stop!!!

First we all have to put up with marathon posts from Andy the w***er and his imaginary Cobra, and now the dullest fight in publication history is taking over our COBRA site. Please can we all get back to talking about our great COBRA's and lose the large volumes of bullsh*t?

Karl

kitcarman
09-10-03, 01:47 AM
Karlos,

Please don’t be a miserable git! This has the makings of a fun topic if Si is who I think he is.

Anyway, how many threads has this site got? You don’t have to read this one you know.

Loosen up and enjoy!

Here's a promise. I won't answer any questions (like Dave's) unless I'm asked. My logic tells me that if somebody asks me a question, there must be at least one person wanting my answer. Have I missed something?

Den.

Si
09-10-03, 09:27 AM
Eh? How did you work out I was selling the car from an obviously incomplete build website.

James (Jim) is my bro, he registerd the site.

Dave is Dave Boulton. Our dad, if anyone is from the automotive/fibreglass industry you may have come across him. If you haven't look at the fibreglass seat backs the next time you're on a train, the meter box on the side of your house, the front of ERF trucks or the back of the Frontera sport (no idea what else mind unless light-curing fibreglass rocks your world). Hardly glamorous, but his stuff.

Here's my other website www.adrenalintrip.net , what awesome insights can you draw form it I wonder?? Registered to Jim again. Look carefully and you'll even find references to the car, our mountainbike racing career and much much more...

rocket
09-10-03, 09:32 AM
the picture you posted of the "chassis" delivered is the one from the website! So you used that, and haven't taken a picture of the one in your garage (unless that IS your garage!)

It is the same picture.

Rgds

Roger

Which clearly shows you are more involed than just a "customer"

Si
09-10-03, 09:41 AM
So who do you think I am then?

maxGD059
09-10-03, 10:10 AM
Lovely tree Mike, & massive garden -does the dinky little white fence go all around the edge?:Y

Cheers

Richard
(Hillclimb convert)

kitcarman
09-10-03, 11:26 AM
Si, remember that the people on this forum are your potential customers. They won’t appreciate being duped, misled or cheated in the way that a certain magazine has been similarly deceiving them.
You asked the forum who they think you are. Well, your “home page” indicates that you’re the Monty Python’s architect.www.cobra535.co.uk

It’s clearly a commercial enterprise for all so many reasons. Lets look at just one:-
“The site will become the owners manual for the car. It will detail the build process, include pictures, parts, settings, specifications and will provide an invaluable resource during the build and subsequent running of the car. Well that’s the plan. We’ll have to see what the reality is.”

We know all about “the plan” and are indeed waiting to see “what the reality is.”, but we’d like to know, if you’re just a punter, by what authority you say “The site will become the owners manual for the car”.

Den

Miket
09-10-03, 12:10 PM
>Lovely tree Mike, & massive garden -does the dinky little
>white fence go all around the edge?:Y
>
>Cheers
>
>Richard
>(Hillclimb convert)

Richard

No its just there to stop the posty and milkman from reversing on the lawn, but they still manage to demolish the posts on a regular basis.

SWP952
09-10-03, 12:44 PM
Unless I'm missing something Sherlock, Si just seems to be a guy with a site. If not, just point out the problem, and then leave it. You seem, in MY opinion, to just be stirring things up, which is getting very tedious.

Get Back to discussing cars not B*ll*cks

Steve
Granada Carlton Merger, all ITV now under Granada control, and even more job cuts for us.

Paul B
09-10-03, 01:29 PM
I am sorry to say that, having kept clear of this whole debate, I must make some comment.

Si, with your initial posting you seem surprised with the reaction.

When your website describes some other cobra's as "some crappy old Sierra with a limp Rover V8" ( mine included !) you must expect some reaction.

The whole tone of your website and your manner in your postings seem to suggest a certain level of superiority that decry's the decisions and love of other people's lives. We all make decisions based on our experience and expectation. I certainly do not expect newbie's, with no prior experience of building cobra kitcars, to come on and start rubbishing my car, any more that you would a GD or a Dax.

I certainly feel you are foolish to embark on a project of this magnitude without having seen a completed demonstrator and am convinced the wording of your website suggests a certain journalistic style often found in magazines.

There is definately an attitude that comes across which makes me believe that is more to this than meets the eye.

I hope I am wrong but you are in great danger, with your attitude, of becoming as "famed" and ANDY (AGWEBSITES).

Sorry guys but I had to say something !

PeteV
09-10-03, 02:18 PM
Come on guys, the fickle finger of suspicion points so firmly in Mr ‘Flibleys’ direction that its virtually jammed right up his bottom ! – just go and have a look at the website. As DT says, some parts of the text are very odd indeed for a site which purports to simply be a ‘punter’ documenting his own build history. If you read between the lines there’s other odd stuff there too. The language is quite strange too inasmuch as a generally ‘erudite’ vocabulary is frequently punctuated by the use of rather strange and inappropriate vernacular – “I #### you not” (sic). Whoever it is would appear to be writing in a style and manner purposefully designed to disguise their true identity.

Also, some of the comments on this present thread – particularly the one where ‘Si’ says he finds the whole magazine slagging thing ‘mildly amusing’ are EXACTLY the same words that appeared in print in the extract from a certain open letter published in ‘Kit Car’ magazine a few months ago. Odd ‘innit ?!

Something strange is going on here – we might be Cobra owners, but we weren’t all borne yesterday as the regrettable consequences of a drunken moment of passion underneath Southend Pier you know !!


Pete.

PS. Has anyone noticed that there are a few other slightly odd ‘newbie’ posts appering from time to time too ? Now I really am getting paranoid ……

osgood
09-10-03, 02:45 PM
Contrary Mary

Paul Pete, you definitely reckon theres a dead Mackerel on the header then!!! MMMmmm I suppose only time will tell;-) Seems strange to me that Andy has gone of line at this moment in time as well, could there be a connection here some where?-:sm Eric.

rocket
09-10-03, 03:05 PM
Any how I hope your not fitting the bmw steering rack cause it will be about as good at handling corners as the original!! but much slower!

Rgds

Roger

Miket
09-10-03, 03:06 PM
Eric

I'd leave it to them and let sort themselves out.

Personally I wouldn't want a Cobra with 6 cylinder BMW engine and suspension, as the price of BMW parts to recondition up to the standard I would require will far out-way the saving on the original kit price, plus the E34 series BMW never went round corners very well.

:tu :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu :tu

rocket
09-10-03, 03:08 PM
ere ere Mike

:tu :tu :tu :tu

osgood
09-10-03, 03:11 PM
Contrary Mary

Richard, whats that what appears to be a hole in the middle of it? Ow I know thats Cobra kev come round for tea and biccies!!:7 Eric.

osgood
09-10-03, 03:21 PM
Contrary Mary

MMmmm yes Mike your probably right although I have no problem with the kit or donor, but there definitely seems to be something Brighton Fishery here with a touch of Leicester and thats not cheese!! By the way get Cobra Kev out of that tree He's only cum round for your Missus chocolate cake Eric;-)

tonym
09-10-03, 03:42 PM
Leicester Eric????????? Isn't that where Wilf is from????? Are you missing him???????{-}

osgood
09-10-03, 05:05 PM
Contrary Mary

Tony no I got that wrong mate Brighton --- Derby. Yes do miss Wilf although I have never met him, friend of mine has though, top man apparently cheers Eric.

fcukruss
09-10-03, 08:29 PM
si
looks like i may have missed the boat a little on this one but my "limp rover engined car is built,drives(very well)and being a tad under the 300hp mark doesn`t hang about either.But most of all i`ll be able to sell it no problem as the company that produce it have a good name and good back up.

hope this clears up a few things and lets you know what i think about your website.

If you dont like what im saying change your website or keep your views to yourself

i thank you very much

russ
:)

PeteV
09-10-03, 09:43 PM
Eric,

Smoke me a kipper , I'll be back for breakfast !!!!:9 :9 :9 {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} {-} :tu :tu :tu


Pete.

osgood
09-10-03, 11:04 PM
Contrary Mary

Okay Pete i'll have a little TROLL around and see what I can come up with!!:7 Talking of Kippers I'm Kippered need some ZZZZd's Eric:tu

osgood
09-10-03, 11:06 PM
Contrary Mary

Night Russ:Y :Y :Y :Y :Y :Y :Y Eric.