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tonym
24-07-03, 09:51 PM
I desperately need help here. I'm in the process of trying to sort out the clutch on my RV8 powered sumo. I've decided to go the pilgrim clutch method and so far i'm failing miserably.

The problem? No matter how I put everything together i get no movement at all on the clutch, let me explain: -
I've bought the required ford quadrant (big white one in the shape of a half circle) and fitted it correctly. I have the correct clutch cable. I've fitted the clutch cable extender thingy on the front bulkhead. The clutch friction plate is fitted the correct way round. The friction plate cover is bolted down correctly. The release bearing is free on the input shaft. The release arm is correctly situated on its pin and in the release bearing. The cable outer cover locates in the release arm hole. The inner cable protrudes through a hole in the back of the bell housing and is secured there. Before the gearbox is fitted the release arm moves freely on its shaft. When the gearbox is fitted the release arm moves freely up to the pressure plate. It's a struggle to get the cable onto the white half circle quadrant, not much free play?? When all connected and i try and press the clutch pedal- absolutely no movement except slight twisting of pedal box.
With the engine running i can put the car into gear with no grinding or crunching, with the cable attached and without it attached although there is no propshaft fitted yet (does that matter?). The gearbox has been in and out three times today and i'm pulling my hair out. This leads me to believe that the clutch is permanently dissengaged, but the release bearing is still free to move on the input shaft.
Does any of this make sense to anyone and can anyone offer some advice and help cos i'm totally out of ideas.

Thanks in anticipation


:} :} :} :} :} :} :} :} ;( ;( :} :} :} :} :} :} :} :}

perky
25-07-03, 12:24 AM
Not sure that I can be much help BUT...............

I had a real problem actuating the clutch pedal with both the white quadrant and 'bracket thingy' fitted, (felt like it was going to snap the cable) as you say also a real b'stad to get the inner cable over the quadrant. So I removed the 'bracket thingy' and all appears to be working ok. I fired up my RV8 last saturday and put the clutch in selected 1st and the shaft at the back of the gbox spun round ( no propshaft fitted) I disengaged the gear and the shaft stopped spinning.

Worth a try ?

Regards
Dave

' and it was going oh so well '

beanpole
25-07-03, 09:43 AM
Tony,

Make sure you have the two rectangular ‘slipper’ pads fitted to the clutch release arm, otherwise this effectively takes away the clutch travel.

With my clutch cable it is not a problem to fit the cable , I just push the quadrant back with my finger and ‘loop’ the cable over into place.

Is the outer cable free to move ?.

Measure the depth of the clutch release arm with a probe to see how deep into the housing it is when not engaged, I will measure mine and compare .

Regards

Steve


:D

breskit
25-07-03, 04:50 PM
The clutch release bearing should be held up against the pressure plate once you have fixed the cable into place. If it doesn't, and you are able to move the release bearing, then there is something wrong with your setup. It could be that you have the incorrect bearing, or perhaps the pivot arm that the release fork sits on is not long enough.

I had great problems trying to sort out my clutch. The biggest problem was not having enough travel to fully release. I sorted this by packing a few washers underneath the pivot arm to give more leverage, in addition to using the white quadrant. First Winter job this year will be to replace it with a hydraulic setup.

HTH
Tony B
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tony.breski

tonym
25-07-03, 06:16 PM
thanks for the help so far....

Steve, the slipper pads are definately still on. I've not had chance yet to drive to the car and check the distance to the arm but trying to remember i'd say about 6 inches although i will check over the weekend and let you know. The cable is free to slide in and out of the cable so that's not sticking.
Tony, with the cable in place the release bearing is up to the pressure plate, I checked for movement of the release arm with the cable removed to ensure it did move and it does. It's a real struggle getting the cable onto the white half circle quadrant so logic says that there is not enough cable travel, so i don't think packing washers underneath would work.

Dave, like yours, when i press the pedal it seems that the cable will snap because of too much pressure, i'll try it without the bracket thingy on soon.

unusual for part of pilgrims design to work for some and not for others?

thanks so far

breskit
25-07-03, 06:24 PM
Tony,

Should of added that I too had to remove the brackety thing from the bulkhead as with it fitted, I had the similar response you did - too tight!!

Cheers,
Tony B
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tony.breski

beanpole
25-07-03, 09:00 PM
Tony,

Assuming all Ford spares dept use the same computer system, my clutch cable is part no 6172086 CABLE - CLUTCH

When I get a chance this weekend I will measure the length of my outer cable.

Steve


;)

Mat
26-07-03, 06:44 AM
When I did my Clutch cable I asked about my Dragster biulding mates and they told me just to use the cable as a atd cable and not as Pilgrim suggest. ie to go round the rear of the bellhouseing and drill a small wjole and pass the inner metal cable through and fix this to the release arm so making it pull the arm instead of pushing as Pilgrims does. On doing this it seems to work mush better and causes no real problems. maybe it may be worth a try.

THE NOVICE
MAT:o

m eeley
28-07-03, 01:48 AM
Now this may be a bit late but...

I decided to go the hydraulic clutch route and used a completely standard SD1 slave cylinder, braided hose(from rimmer bros) and a standard SD1 clutch master cylinder. I preffered this to a cable conversion.

The master cylinder mounts between the brake servo and the r/h rocker cover and is elevated using wedge shaped mounting plate. The push rod then connects to the sierra clutch pedal using a pivot bolt.

The whole arrangement is quite tight and i spent some time getting the pivot point / travel of the push rod right.

All works fine.

If you want any further details / dims / photos let me know.

breskit
28-07-03, 09:13 AM
The only problem I see in trying to fix the cable through the rear of the bellhousing (on a Sumo) is that the cable isn't long enough. You would need an extremly long cable to route it through the back of the bellhousing, probably making this a custom made up cable.

M Eeley, I'm hoping to do the same hydraulic conversion to my Sumo later this year (Winter). I'd be very interested in pictures/details of how you managed to get the master cylinder in place as you're quite right when you say space is tight. I have the parts I need sat on the garage floor at the moment, waiting.

Woud be very interested in details of the wedge bracket used to mount the master cylinder.

Thanks,
Tony B
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tony.breski

Mat
01-08-03, 12:00 PM
As far as I can remember it was just a std Ford Clutch cable from a Granada? It seems to work OK, only thing I am worried about is the cable wearing out prematurely, but don't really see this as a problem as I will only be doing a small amount of miles in a year.

THE NOVICE
MAT:D

tonym
01-08-03, 06:55 PM
Well where do i start?
Thanks are due first, thank you to all of you who replied with advice to my clutch problem. I took the bracket thingy off, fitted the clutch cable again, easily looped the cable end over the pedal quadrant and it all works very well!!!
Thanks also to Allan R who came to see me today with his prop shaft which i promptly fitted and managed to drive the car forwards and backwards, didn't want to give the prop back, must get one now.

Once again, thanks very much for the advice.

:-) :-) :-) :-) {-} :-) :-) :-) :-)

Keith S
20-10-03, 04:51 PM
Hi,
I am having problems with the pilgrim conversion on my RV8 Sumo mk 3.
I have also decided to go down the hydraulic route.
Obviously no problems with the gearbox end using the standard rover slave cylinder, but the pedal end is causing me some loss of hair!!
I realise that the SD1 master cylinder needs to be used in order to get the correct displacement of fluid when the pedal is depressed.
The question is how to get the Sierra pedal to work the thing.
Are you using Sierra pedals/ servo and is it a Mk3 sumo?
The guys at pilgrim who have been more than helpfull are quite adament that there is not room to fit the Rover master cylinder.
What you have said is therefore realy interesting and I would realy appreciate any photos etc on how you have fitted the master cylinder.
Also where is the best place to buy the cylinders, are Rimmers competitive?
Keith S

perky
21-10-03, 11:27 PM
Just a note of caution

I thought i had a succesful set up using the pilgrim method, having swapped the quadrant for the bigger white version. All gears worked ok. However after a short period of time I was getting the odd clicking noise from pedal. eventually the pedal would not hold the pressure and when I removed the pedal box I found that a number of the teeth on the quadrant had sheared off!!!

So I have now fitted the standard (yellow) quadrant and no spacer tube and all seems to work ok.

Dave
' and it was going oh so well '

finkle777
22-10-03, 09:27 AM
My findings.

I went the standard pilgrim way with a few exceptions i have changed my cluth plate for a heavy duty unit.

I to had problems on the initial runs. I have used the standard mark two cable granada with the standard yellow sierra quadrant.

I found problems to arise on the first two runs. The first time the clutch was very heavy hardly any movement and the pedle box let alone the cable was complaining about the forces. On sloser inspection i found the clutch arm to of moved off of the pivot point however due to the thriust bearing slippers and cable was still in the right place ish this meant foot on clutch and the clutch was pivoting about the wrong fulcrum thus requiring extra effort and jamming the thrust bearing assembly on the the move. So engine gear box apart.

Second run similar happened but this time the nylon collor moved. On the ned of the clutch cable clutch arm end. The cable moved back and up a touch causing only the cable to run trough the new hole. When all connected up not enough free play so a good hard pull and all the adjustment later meant it was on but now holding the clutch on all the time slighty. I found the problem with her make up mirror and torch. I could not get the cable coller to sit right in the arm so took it all apart again.

I ended up cutting a recess in the spare [art of the nylon coller behing the clutch arm and fitted a cir clip now it cant move. I also turned up a follower which holds the cable dead straight on to the arm trrough the bell housing so no up and down movement ( heavily lubed inside). I cut down pilgrims insert that bolts to the chassie.
All is now tops.

My only concern is that the cable adjuster always apliys slight tension to the cable and that the thrust bearing might be encourage to windmill with the flywheel due to constant applied pressure so i plan to adjust the pedle travel stops anyone else paid any consideration to this point.

Daniel Evans


Rolling under own power around industrial estate under darkness
Nr Norwich

finkle777
22-10-03, 09:34 AM
Missed some text some how

I ended up cutting a recess in the spare protruding nylon coller that passes through the clutch arm. This was so i could place a cir clip on the other side so it wouldnt ever come away like before. I turned up a follower guide that cable passes trhough the folloer hold the cable perfectly aligned all the way to the clutch arm there is 1/2 a inch between follower and arm. So basically the cable can not move any wear. I trimmed down the pilgrim chassis spacer for the cable as well all is now fine

breskit
22-10-03, 09:47 AM
I think that if you have had to put a circlip onto the cable to keep it in place then you still haven't got the setup correct.

The idea of the pedal quadrant is to take up any slack of the internal cable from where it is fixed to the rear of the bellhousing, right up to the top of the pedal. If this internal cable is too long then the top of the quadrant will move towards the driver seat to take up this slack. This results in the outer cable being held firmly between the top of the bulkhead and the front of the release arm.

Due to this constant tension, the thrust bearing will be constantly held against the clutch plate and thus nothing should fall apart.

Think about this. When your clutch cable snaps (as they often do), how are you going to remove that circlip without taking the bellhousing/gearbox off the car? With a "normal" setup you should be able to simply unhook the cable from the pedal, loosen from the rear of the bellhousing and then remove the cable. Refitting is a reversal of removing (ala Haynes!).

This is how mine is setup and works fine. No circlips required.

Just a thought.

Tony B
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tony.breski

finkle777
22-10-03, 04:07 PM
I have achieved firm tension at rest on the cable as it enters the pedel box, but yes an interesting point should the cable snap. I will be left with a engine out task.

My issue over the thrust bearing was aired by a friend who implied that standard cable operated clutchs incorperate a better system for ensuring bearing release, and conversion of a hydraulic one to cable as in this case could lead to problems of the bearing constantly windmilling due to the tension on the cable from the cable adjustment mechanism. Hence my mention of a stop and the circlip.

Any advice or views always welcome

Cheers Dan

brianp
07-11-03, 11:20 AM
Hi

I am experiencing similar problems. I have a McLeoud slave for my T56 gearbox and need to adapt my Sierra pedals to take a 1/2 or 5/8 master cyliner. Does anyone have a ny photos or tips. Does the Marina Pedal Box solve this?

Brian:-(

breskit
07-11-03, 11:28 AM
Magnum Engineering can attach a remote master cylinder to the Sierra pedal box for you - you will need to send it to them. I'm planning on sending mine there this winter so will have some pics when it comes back.

http://www.magnum-engineering.com/

Cheers,
Tony B
---
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tony.breski

Bernie
07-11-03, 01:11 PM
It might be worth looking at the v8tuner mechanical adaptor as well. Mine works really well, though it hasn't had much of an outing yet. It's a well-made piece of kit, and I would have thought much easier to retro-fit than the hydraulic stuff.

http://www.cobraclub.com/crcforum/user_files/2815.jpg

breskit
07-11-03, 01:17 PM
Bernie,

How do you find the pressure on the pedal with that setup? I have the straightforward Pilgrim conversion on my Sumo and the clutch pedal is impossibly stiff. You need legs like tree trunks when crawling through traffic jams. I've felt a RV8 with hydraulic setup and the pedal is so light, that's the reason I'm changing to hydraulics.

Cheers,
Tony B
---
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tony.breski

Kevin W
07-11-03, 04:55 PM
Can anyone tell me whether the yellow cam has a larger quadrant (ie takes up more slack) than the white quadrant? I still need just a bit more slack taken up.

cheers,

Kevin

beanpole
08-11-03, 03:56 PM
Kevin,

The white quadrant has a 5mm larger raduis than the yellow quadrant.

:tu

Steve

Bernie
08-11-03, 10:01 PM
It seemed ok - we've only driven it up and down the drive yet, so I don't have huge practice, but it seemed like a clutch, really. If you're ever in the Woking area , you're welcome to come and press my clutch anytime!

Bernie
09-11-03, 12:25 PM
....and it occurs to me that the v8tuner system gives a mechanical advantage of maybe 2:1 or nearly so because of the lever arm lengths. The Pilgrim system connects you direct to the spring, and is thus much harder work.

I've just been out to the garage in the rain to have a thoughtful clutch pressing session, and it is just an ordinary feeling clutch.