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  1. #441
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    Northampton
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    42
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    Well, I've spent all weekend dicking around with the bell housing and what I have achieved is .. becoming tired and pissed off with it!

    I got it parallel within 0.001" TIR, by using ~0.008" of shims under the lower right bolt, that bit wasn't too bad although it feels like far more shims than it should need to correct what was about 0.004" TIR.. but it seems to be a repeatable measurement.

    Set about trying to measure the concentricity and to do that you need to liberate the front casing of the gearbox, so I did that:


    Trouble is, the gearbox has a very long snout which gets in the way of putting the indicator base anywhere stable.. so I figured I'd have to put the flywheel back on to get a large enough flat surface for a stable mount.

    I hate that bloody flywheel. It's such a tight fit on the crank that you have to beat it half way on with a dead blow mallet, and then try and wind it the rest of the way with the bolts. But no matter what I do, I can only get ~3 of 6 bolts in. I know the bolt pattern isn't circular, but I lined up the witness marks on the back (at least I thought I did) from where it came off and still no dice. Three bolts go in nicely, the fourth binds and five & six won't even start on the threads.



    You can see which ones went in by the black ARP Superlube witness marks.

    I'd take the flywheel off and try it in another orientation but now it's wedged on the damn crank and I can't beat it back off again because I have the block plate in the way! FFS. I may give up on it until lockdown ends and I can get some help in because I have absolutely no idea how Clive got it on when he built the engine, and no confidence that I'm not going to muller yet another thread in the crank by trying.
    My DeDion build diary..
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  2. #442
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    West Sussex
    Posts
    9,390
    Sorry to hear that. Think you should give ya man Clive a call.
    Crendon Chassis No.49
    Huddart FE428 + toploader

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  3. #443
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    liverpool
    Age
    47
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    607
    Found two sites saying them same thing -

    The flywheel/crankshaft flange are not symmetrical bolt patterns; one of the six boltholes is drilled in a "NON-symmetrical" rotation of the common bolt circle diameter. This manufacturing method has several functions but, for us, it insures that once the assembly is balanced it will always be returned to the same orientation. Simply rotate the flywheel on the flange until all six holes line up before installing any of the bolts. Good luck.

    And

    The holes in the flywheel and crankshaft are NOT drilled on a symmetrical pattern even though it may look like they are evenly spaced. There is only one combination of flywheel to crankshaft indexing out of six possibilities where all six holes line up. Put the flywheel on the crank hub and turn it until all six holes line up.

    Now to answer your next question- Why did Ford do that? Because the flywheel has an offset counterweight to balance the rotating assembly. If the holes were evenly spaced and the flywheel could be installed in any of the six possibilities the engine would be severely out of balance in five of the six positions.

    HTH, good luck 👍

  4. #444
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    Mar 2009
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    liverpool
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    47
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    607
    On trying to get it off now. First thing in the morning once it's sat all night in the cold. Put a space heater onto the flywheel so it can expand and the block keep the crank cold. Maybe a couple of timber wedge's might help if needed as well. Then when you try again make sure the flywheel is warm to give some clearance?

  5. #445
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinW View Post
    Sorry to hear that. Think you should give ya man Clive a call.
    Aye, I did - he can come down and give me a hand .. though not until The Man* allows it..

    (*Boris/Whitty/whoever is in charge next)

    Quote Originally Posted by philbrad73 View Post
    The holes in the flywheel and crankshaft are NOT drilled on a symmetrical pattern even though it may look like they are evenly spaced. There is only one combination of flywheel to crankshaft indexing out of six possibilities where all six holes line up. Put the flywheel on the crank hub and turn it until all six holes line up.

    Now to answer your next question- Why did Ford do that? Because the flywheel has an offset counterweight to balance the rotating assembly. If the holes were evenly spaced and the flywheel could be installed in any of the six possibilities the engine would be severely out of balance in five of the six positions.
    Yup, that is true - it's hard to spot but you can spot it looking closely.. thing is, my crank end isn't round (it's an internal balance Scat crank so has cutouts around some of the bolt holes to remove weight) which means it leaves an odd shaped witness mark on the back of the flywheel - so I just line that up and it should be back in the one position it fits; except I can never get the bolts in which is doing my nut..

    [edit] Found a picture online - you can see the flywheel mounting face at the back, here: https://pitstopusa.com/i-23976964-sc...l-bb-ford.html

    Quote Originally Posted by philbrad73 View Post
    On trying to get it off now. First thing in the morning once it's sat all night in the cold. Put a space heater onto the flywheel so it can expand and the block keep the crank cold. Maybe a couple of timber wedge's might help if needed as well. Then when you try again make sure the flywheel is warm to give some clearance?
    Good idea - I'll grab the fan heater from the workshop and get it warm, see if I can get it off at least, because with the block plate on there's only the starter motor hole to thump it through (with a lump of dead tree and a mallet, of course)
    My DeDion build diary..
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  6. #446
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
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    Shipston-On-Stour
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    524
    I’ve never used a SCAT crank but it sounds a very tight fit! Never had an FE crank/flywheel that tight. You can normally spin the flywheel on the mounting surface to align the bolts..
    Does your engine builder say that it’s normal to have it that tight?

  7. #447
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    cheshire
    Posts
    1,401
    Hit it through the starter hole and after every hit rotate it 90 degrees, it should ease off, buy some stud length, insert the studs only hand tight into the crank leaving about 2” stuck out, so they don’t bend when you slide the flywheel on, any resistance means out of alignment, if it goes on undo the stud lengths and replace with bolts. If it does go on you should be able to see an even gap around the studs threads. If it does work witness mark the position because no doubt you will be taking it off at least another 6 times!!!
    HTH, Lee

  8. #448
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
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    42
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisP View Post
    I’ve never used a SCAT crank but it sounds a very tight fit! Never had an FE crank/flywheel that tight. You can normally spin the flywheel on the mounting surface to align the bolts..
    Does your engine builder say that it’s normal to have it that tight?
    Yeah, I was expecting 'snug' but not 'might as well be welded on', based on other cars I've worked on.. Clive's words were "it might need a tap but not beating on" - might be we just have different definitions of "tap" but considering he'd fitted it already when I got the engine, I know it went on at least once (sadly I had to take it off to get the block plate on as I'd forgotten to give him that with all the other bits..)

    Quote Originally Posted by 427jlc View Post
    Hit it through the starter hole and after every hit rotate it 90 degrees, it should ease off, buy some stud length, insert the studs only hand tight into the crank leaving about 2” stuck out, so they don’t bend when you slide the flywheel on, any resistance means out of alignment, if it goes on undo the stud lengths and replace with bolts. If it does go on you should be able to see an even gap around the studs threads. If it does work witness mark the position because no doubt you will be taking it off at least another 6 times!!!
    HTH, Lee
    Good idea - I'll pick up some 7/16" UNF threaded rod. If nothing else, it'll save me dropping the ring gear on my fingers again

    There are lots of reports (now I google some more) about the ARP bolts being a bit "too snug" in the flywheel holes, though they are a good slip fit now (some folks find they are a press fit!) with almost zero play, that does mean the margin for error is also .. almost zero. Plus I'm terrified of welding another one in there!

    Last time I did a clutch & flywheel on a car it was a breeze .. of course it did help that the whole pack weighed about 10lb (clutch and fly) and the flywheel alone is more like 30lb! (the whole kit & kaboodle came from Modern DriveLine, this is the flywheel described as 'lightened' - https://www.moderndriveline.com/shop...e-428ci-motor/)
    My DeDion build diary..
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  9. #449
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    NW England
    Posts
    662
    When I built my car I didn't know about this engine-'box alignment stuff which was great as it saved me a load of time not having to take the gearbox apart during the build. Find it difficult to believe Ford (or whoever) go through this process on every car they build. Surely the parts should just be made right?

    I must admit it's not really clear to me how you are measuring the parallelism with that tape stuck on the face of your bellhousing on the earlier pictures but if you are sure it is out of true wouldn't it be better to get someone to bolt it to a machine bed, clock it up again to check your readings and skim it correct, removing a minimum of material (which should be about 0.1mm, 0.004")?
    Sticking a piece of shim under one bolt will mean you could introduce distortion when you clamp it up. May not be a problem but not a very good practice.

    This may also help your concetricty. By shimming between the engine and bell housing the gearbox attacement face centrepoint will also move. Should only be slight but none would be better.
    If you were to get the bellhousing machined then it may be a good idea to get the alignment hole relationships checked at the same time (mabe even correct if wrong), at least then you know you're starting in the right place.

  10. #450
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    Feb 2011
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    I agree shimming might not be ideal, but it's what everyone* seems to do - granted I could 'split the difference' and step down in shims going up.. that would minimise distortion. This is all more of a problem with manufactured bell housings rather than cast, it seems.

    I am tempted just to say fuck it, bolt it on and be done with it, to be honest. With a pilot bearing (as opposed to bushing) the drag on the input shaft would likely be minimal and it's unlikely to do enough miles to eat the front bearing of the gearbox due to any preload.

    Measuring parallelism is just sweeping an indicator across the back (gearbox) face of the bell housing by attaching it to the crank - the packing tape is there because the bell housing has chuffing great holes chopped out of it (factory) for the clutch fork etc, and the indicator needs something to skate across (I can't be at both ends of the engine at the same time). That's per the instructions in the QuickTime manual and threads elsewhere.

    Measuring concentricity (which yes, will change with parallelism) is harder as the bell housing isn't a register, so you have to use the front bearing race of the front of the gearbox, or buy an alignment measurement plate from the US..
    My DeDion build diary..
    Hon Sec of the Digidash branch of the Unpopular Kit Car Design club

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