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  1. #1
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    More advice on brakes - Grippier pads

    Just following on from the recent "More advice on brakes"thread, it has got me thinking on how I can get greater braking effect for a given pedal input, most obvious way seems to be grippier pads, ones with higher coefficient of friction.

    My car uses Wilwood Midilite calipers with Wilwoods BP10 pads, looking at the data for these they give a coefficient of friction of 0.47 @ around 370°C, around 0.42 below that.
    I have previously been suggested to use Mintex M1144 pads however having looked for some details on these they appear to be between 0.4 & 0.44 Cf which is similar to what I have now.
    EBC indicate 0.55 for their Greenstuff pads which is a little better but not massively so.

    Wilwood also list other compounds the most 'useful' looking are compunds "A", "H" & BP30
    These all offer higher friction (between 0.55 & 0.67 depending on temperature) and peak at lower temperature which would appear to make more sense in a road car (which mine is) but they are all marked as not for road use/race only, however I don't see any indication of what the nature of the un-suitabilty is.

    Has anyone used any of these pads and if so what was the downside to them in a road car?

    Failing that has anyone used any other compounds which may give high grip and not give any issues on a road car? Bearing in mind I'm not concerned about longevity or dust creation.

  2. #2
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    If you're looking at EBC, I wouldn't even bother to look at Greenstuff .. start at Yellow and work up. You might be concerned about lack of cold bite but having run them on a very light car (Toyota MR2 Roadster) I can tell you they stop just fine from dead cold and were a huge improvement over the standard pads. Roughly 0.6 Cf I believe.

    IIRC pads are rated as "not for road use" because they aren't ECE type approved.. doesn't mean they don't work just fine, though.
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  3. #3
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    I have got Red EBC just fitted with new discs. My original ones were Mintex and use to do a lot brake dust but great stopping. I need to bed in the EBC. They seem softer at the moment.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronjb View Post
    If you're looking at EBC, I wouldn't even bother to look at Greenstuff .. start at Yellow and work up. You might be concerned about lack of cold bite but having run them on a very light car (Toyota MR2 Roadster) I can tell you they stop just fine from dead cold and were a huge improvement over the standard pads. Roughly 0.6 Cf I believe.

    IIRC pads are rated as "not for road use" because they aren't ECE type approved.. doesn't mean they don't work just fine, though.

    Cheers Aaron. I've used a couple of different EBC compounds in the past with mixed results.
    I put greenstuff on my MX-5 and they were perfectly fine although diffcult to say if they were better/different to standard, that car had epic brakes in standard form anyhow.
    I also put Yellowstuff (or may have been Red, can't remember now, was a good few years ago) on my XF and was never really happy with them, always felt like pads were glazed (double glazed maybe), should have remained with standard pads as braking was fine with them.
    I found the following chart while digging around on t'Internet which indicate Green are best at lower temp's but drop of as heat increases,

    EBC Chart.jpg

    I do hate it when charts don't indicate what units the axes are in. OK I know X is degrees but °C or °F! I also don't know the source of this data hence how accurate/trustworthy it is.

    Based on that I think Green would most likely be better on my car alghough I don't know what temperature I'm likely to get up to and if 400° is high or low.
    However the Cf indicated for Green is <0.5 at best which is lower than what I have now.


    Thanks for the advice on "Not for road use", if it is only an approval issue then I don't see a problem, was more worried about being unable to live with using them. In that case it looks like the Wilwood pads have more to offer.

    Wilwood chart.jpg

    The "A" is the most obviously impressive and although is drops off after 450°F (230°C) if still maintains a simiar level to the "H" & "BP-30" compounds. Only downside I can see so far is that they are a little pricey but what value can you put on safety?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon1d View Post
    I have got Red EBC just fitted with new discs. My original ones were Mintex and use to do a lot brake dust but great stopping. I need to bed in the EBC. They seem softer at the moment.

    Cheers Jon.

    Maybe i'm missing somethign but based on the EBC chart I put in the previous post I don't really see the point in the Red EBCs, they have consistently less Cf than Yellow and drop off where Yellow get grippier.
    As I said in that post though I don't know how trustworthy that chart is.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by GDCobra View Post
    I put greenstuff on my MX-5 and they were perfectly fine although diffcult to say if they were better/different to standard, that car had epic brakes in standard form anyhow.
    I also put Yellowstuff (or may have been Red, can't remember now, was a good few years ago) on my XF and was never really happy with them, always felt like pads were glazed (double glazed maybe), should have remained with standard pads as braking was fine with them.
    My biggest problem with EBC is they seem to continually change the compounds.. many (many!) years ago - late 90s or early 2000s - I had Greenstuff pads on a Renault 19 16v and one very cold journey I literally thought I wasn't going to stop at a roundabout. Below 0C they did absolutely diddley, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't ice as the wheels were still turning.. a few stops later they were working fine but the first one coming off the motorway was underwear-soiling time!

    Cut to a decade or so after that and I cautiously tried Yellowstuff pads and found they stopped far better than Green, even dead cold.. but for all I know, I suppose, they've changed the formula again since then

    [edit] Oh - on the not for road use comment; I do know some pads can be incredibly squeaky.. so it might be worth trying to find real world reports of any pads you're looking at, too.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronjb View Post
    My biggest problem with EBC is they seem to continually change the compounds.. many (many!) years ago - late 90s or early 2000s - I had Greenstuff pads on a Renault 19 16v and one very cold journey I literally thought I wasn't going to stop at a roundabout. Below 0C they did absolutely diddley, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't ice as the wheels were still turning.. a few stops later they were working fine but the first one coming off the motorway was underwear-soiling time!
    That's exactly why I don't want a pad which needs to be warmed up (and kept warm), this is a road car so can go reasonably long periods between applications, I really don't want that "will it/won't it" underpant filling moment after not using the brakes for a while, that sounds similar to what my Jag' felt like with the Yellow (or possibly Red) pads.
    I'm not expecting to use the Cobra in sub zero (probably not even single figure) temperatures but even so I want predictable stopping power right from the off.


    Quote Originally Posted by aaronjb View Post

    Oh - on the not for road use comment; I do know some pads can be incredibly squeaky.. so it might be worth trying to find real world reports of any pads you're looking at, too.
    That's a good point and one of the things I'm a little bothered about. Not exactly a show stopper but can be annoying and make you look like a bit of a boy racer, but like the sneezing turbo cars.
    The brakes on my Mercedes squeek a bit which is embarrassing. Only happens at slow/parking speeds (but of course that's when it's more of a problem) that is with the correct/standard Brembo discs and pads.

  8. #8
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    I've tried green stuff pads previously on a mk4 golf I had. They were ok for day to day driving not much more bite than standard pads I did used to track day the car and had a bit of an issue with them after one day they started to crumble due to over heating. Something to watch out for.

    I've use ferodo DS 2500 afterwards they seemed to fair a good chunk better, good bite from cold and coped with plenty of track days without fading either. Ferodo do a ds3000 the next step on which they start are dedicated fast track use not for the road. I've not tried these yet.

    In the cobra I've got a set of pagid rs series pads, I'm still building so can't say what they are like currently but have heard good things.

    Greg
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by austin21 View Post
    I've tried green stuff pads previously on a mk4 golf I had. They were ok for day to day driving not much more bite than standard pads I did used to track day the car and had a bit of an issue with them after one day they started to crumble due to over heating. Something to watch out for.

    I've use ferodo DS 2500 afterwards they seemed to fair a good chunk better, good bite from cold and coped with plenty of track days without fading either. Ferodo do a ds3000 the next step on which they start are dedicated fast track use not for the road. I've not tried these yet.

    In the cobra I've got a set of pagid rs series pads, I'm still building so can't say what they are like currently but have heard good things.

    Greg

    Cheers Greg.
    Sounds like you have similar experience with greenstuff that I had on my Mazda with regard to not being much different to OEM, I did one track day in that car and didn't have any issues but must admit I can't remember if that was before the pad change or not. I did find some information last week on t'Internet which indicated that the OEM Mazda pads were actually very good and I must say I'm not surprised as I thought the brakes on that car were extremely good, best on any car I'd had at that time (2006). Since then I've had a Golf R with was also very good, difficult to say if better, and my Mercedes which I'd say is (slightly) better but does have 6 pot fronts with 340mm floating discs and 4 pot rears with 330mm discs (vented). Given that the Mazda had innocuous single piston floating calipers and relatively small discs (which don't cost over £1000 a pair like the Merc' fronts) I'd say that was a win for the Japanese.

    Not sure who else makes pads to fit the Wilwood calipers apart from those I've mentioned but could look into that a bit more.
    On the high(er) friction, race only, pads I've mentioned so far the best I've found looking around t'Internet in terms of the downside is possible noise issues and high disc wear. Problem is I don't seem to be able to find any information on how high this disc wear is likely to be. I could be this is compared to a regular road car where several 10's of thousands of miles are expected for a set of discs. Given the mileage mine does I wouldn't be too bothered if I had to replace them in the low thousands. Low hundreds would be a problem but as I say can't find any info' on that.
    Also what I have found is mainly American so probably taking about heavy cars, perhaps my sub 1000KG car would not be so bad.

    I may try dropping a set of Greenstuff pads in, they're not too expensive, probably an improvement in what I have now and if I get anywhere near the claimed 15% improved stopping power (which I translate as being 15% less leg power needed for a given stopping power) it will be all to the good. Perhaps this difference will be more noticable when not running a servo
    I'll also be investigating the possibility of a servo. Looks like there is a possibility with the Rover unit mentioned earlier in this thread although I'll need to do something creative with the clutch/brake pedal spacing to get that diameter in. I'm also going to be looking into units from the Mazda MX-5's as suggested as, from photo's I've seen, these look reasonably compact.

  10. #10
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    I'm pretty sure that a few years back I was going through the same process on my Cobra.
    I'm almost certain that I finished up with EBC Blue stuff pads.
    Kev Davies
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