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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2020
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    west sussex
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    124

    Seat belt mounting

    My Pilgrim Sumo 3 just failed IVA, a few simple fixes but the most difficult is the seat belt mounting for central fitted inertia belts.

    Testers not happy as fixing needs to be 'Triangulated and Braced', looking over fuel tank it looked as if the belts were only mounted on a T section which I presumed was welded or bolted to chassis behind tank.

    I removed tank and attached photo shows what I found, not even secured to chassis and fibre glassed into Sumo shell

    Has anyone else on here had to fit a triangulated frame to better support seat belt mounting, if so please post a photo if possible.

    I think the only way to fit any framework is to move fuel tank further back, which means relocating filler and bodywork repairs/paintwork.

    Extremely surprised Pilgrim thought fitting the seat belt support bracket into fibre glass was strong enough in an accident, even if the support bracket was secured into chassis at the bottom.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Newcastle upon Tyne
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    1,935
    Hi,

    If I remember correctly the Pilgrim Sumo was tested by the German authorities and passed their TUV vehicle roadworthiness test. This confirmed the security of Pilgrim's method of anchoring the top mounting of the inertia seatbelt to a metal frame bonded into the body shell.

    I believe the issue arises when the inspector is unable to assess the strength of the body shell and therefore plays safe by demanding a metal framework to securing the anchor point to the chassis.

    It might be worth asking Pilgrim for a copy of the TUV certificate and to support an appeal against the decision.

    Good luck whichever way you go.

    Ian
    Pilgrim Sumo Mk3; IVA Apr. 2014; RV8 3.9 EFi ; Cosworth T5; Granada Donor
    Phase Two underway - Conversion to Japanese

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    West Sussex
    Posts
    9,628
    What Ian said.
    Crendon Chassis No.49
    Huddart FE428 + toploader

    Not listed in the Shelby Register.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Hockley ,Essex
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    58
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    492
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian C View Post
    Hi,

    If I remember correctly the Pilgrim Sumo was tested by the German authorities and passed their TUV vehicle roadworthiness test. This confirmed the security of Pilgrim's method of anchoring the top mounting of the inertia seatbelt to a metal frame bonded into the body shell.

    I believe the issue arises when the inspector is unable to assess the strength of the body shell and therefore plays safe by demanding a metal framework to securing the anchor point to the chassis.

    It might be worth asking Pilgrim for a copy of the TUV certificate and to support an appeal against the decision.

    Good luck whichever way you go.

    Ian
    It was proberbly about the same time as Southern Roadcraft with regards to the TUV tests being
    carried out .
    The frame work for the seat belt anchorage was totally different to the Pilgrim set up and
    I'm sure the SVA testers would proberbly fail these although they were TUV tested .
    Chris.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    west sussex
    Posts
    124
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian C View Post
    Hi,

    If I remember correctly the Pilgrim Sumo was tested by the German authorities and passed their TUV vehicle roadworthiness test. This confirmed the security of Pilgrim's method of anchoring the top mounting of the inertia seatbelt to a metal frame bonded into the body shell.

    I believe the issue arises when the inspector is unable to assess the strength of the body shell and therefore plays safe by demanding a metal framework to securing the anchor point to the chassis.

    It might be worth asking Pilgrim for a copy of the TUV certificate and to support an appeal against the decision.

    Good luck whichever way you go.

    Ian
    Yes I have a reply from Pilgrim engineer who indeed confirms there method of mounting into the body has been tested and past, he asked where my test was carried out (Gillingham) as he appeared annoyed testers were still not passing the proven save method Pilgrim use to secure seat belts.

    I know the IVA testers made it clear they thought they knew best, stating the manufacturers of kit cars often get it wrong.

    I don't want to antagonize IVA testers but if some sort of approval with TUV certificate means I don't have a s**t load of work to do it might be worth the risk

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    west sussex
    Posts
    124
    THIS IS FULL REPLY FROM PILGRIM:

    This issue always makes me angry. Pilgrim seat belt mountings are hidden behind the fuel tank. We realised this would cause an issue at test, so we spent thousands of pounds having the seatbelt set up type approved. IVA testing stations have a copy of this approval on their file, and yet we still have this ongoing issue.
    The T frame that you refer to is bonded into the body shell of the car and has passed all required stress tests. Thousands of cars have passed SVA and IVA with this setup. I will send you photographs to present to the tester. If you refer to the build manual the seatbelt fitting section shows the type approval image.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    West Sussex
    Posts
    9,628
    - think that should be sufficient. But you might need to email the Chief Inspector and get a communication going with them before going back to Gillingham.
    Contact details should be available on the web if you do some googling.
    Crendon Chassis No.49
    Huddart FE428 + toploader

    Not listed in the Shelby Register.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    west sussex
    Posts
    124
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinW View Post
    - think that should be sufficient. But you might need to email the Chief Inspector and get a communication going with them before going back to Gillingham.
    Contact details should be available on the web if you do some googling.
    I contacted DVLA who advised me to email IVA chief engineer, this is my email:

    Good morning,

    DVLA advised me to email you about this issue.

    Vehicle failed on a few very minor issues, however the testers advised the most difficult issue to resolve was the top mounted inertia seat belts mounting.

    To resolve this and fit a triangulated and braced frame to support existing mounting bracket involves relocating fuel tank further to rear of vehicle to make room for a support frame to the IVA manual specifications (triangulated and braced), after making a triangulated frame the existing bracket needs cutting out and removing from body and welding to frame, followed by bodywork/paintwork due the new fuel tank filler position.

    I contacted Pilgrim for advice as they produce the body with seat belt mounting as part of the that bodyshell... this was the reply from there technical engineer.

    Pilgrim seat belt mountings are hidden behind the fuel tank. We realised this would cause an issue at test, so we spent thousands of pounds having the seatbelt set up type approved. IVA testing stations have a copy of this approval on their file, and yet we still have this ongoing issue.
    The T frame that you refer to is bonded into the body shell of the car and has passed all required stress tests. Thousands of cars have passed SVA and IVA with this setup. I will send you photographs to present to the tester. If you refer to the build manual the seatbelt fitting section shows the type approval image.

    Please can you confirm the seat belt mounting is to IVA required standard and if possible advise Gillingham, obviously I need to resolve the other minor fail issues and book re-test but don’t want any problem getting the seat belt mounting passed if it has in fact been tested to required standards.

    Regards,

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Northampton
    Posts
    1,239
    Apologies for the minor deviation of the thread, does anyone know if it is possible to change the seat belts without removing the fuel tank in a Mk2 Sumo ?
    David (AKA Firestarter29)

    Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    west sussex
    Posts
    124
    UPDATE: Finally got reply from chief examiners office, advising me Gillingham would contact me.

    MY REPLY:

    Subject: RE: IVA. TAS525900

    Good morning,

    I have not heard from Gillingham yet regarding this issue.

    But my understanding was it was your department that could confirm Pilgrim seat belt mountings were or were not to IVA acceptable standard, and that you then advise the examiners, this is why DVLA advised me to contact you to resolve issue.

    I feel that I’m in the middle of some sort of disagreement between yourselves and the manufacturer as Pilgrim are adamant the way they produce there cars have incorporated a seat belt mounting that is fully tested to proven stress test level for the IVA test.

    The Pilgrim Sumo build manual confirms it has European Seat Belt Anchorage Approval and complies with seat belt anchorage test. Type approved REG.14 as amended to 14.02.
    Can you confirm (as manufacturer have advised me) that you actually have that type approval on file?

    Regards,

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